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"MEDITATION is fast becoming a fashionable tool for improving your mind." - Oh, RLY?! LOL! WUT. As for rest of the nonsense, any more or less authoritative tea

"MEDITATION is fast becoming a fashionable tool for improving your mind." - Oh, RLY?! LOL! WUT. As for rest of the nonsense, any more or less authoritative teacher will tell you that it requires years of deliberate practice to attain very basic level of being continuously aware and in control of ones inner states. It is not mere sitting and counting one's breath. This is just a training drill for the very first realization, that thoughts are not continuous, that there is a gaps between them, and that the thought could be stopped, but not by self-denial or will, but naturally ceased, like an unnecessary tension. This is just a realization (the most important one) but one cannot stop ones mind without forcing oneself, and even that only for a few seconds. This is NOT the goal of meditation. It is only the very first step. But the next step - from this very first realization to developing a habit of being self-aware continuously, without any conscious effort requires years of practice. Different schools and branches has different techniques to practice daily in order to develop this habit of permanent self-awareness with in pop-culture is called the third eye (which looks inside). Practices which are based on body/breath control to change the state of the mind usually called yoga, at least in Tibetan or Indian tradition, but there are many so-called analytic meditation techniques, such as famous Tibetan meditation on a corpse (to realize the true nature of our body) and so on. So, please, cut that 8-week-course crap out. What they "measured" is elevated self-esteem, or better self-confidence, or just felling special or even enlightened - any kind of these naive pre-mature "experiences" each and any novice had had. It takes years of daily practice, as any other talent development.

mjb 13y ago
> So, please, cut that 8-week-course crap out. What they "measured" is elevated self-esteem, or better self-confidence, or just felling special or even enlightened - any kind of these naive pre-mature "experiences" each and any novice had had. If a novice can improve themselves in only 8 weeks, that doesn't seem to imply that only practicing for 8 weeks is "crap". Rather, it seems to imply that an 8 week course may be truly valuable. It takes a great deal of daily practice to master chess, but even a few hours of instruction and the occasional game provides many people with pleasure, a chance for social interaction, and practice in careful thought. You don't need to truly master something for its practice to have value. > any more or less authoritative teacher will tell you that it requires years of deliberate practice to attain very basic level of being continuously aware and in control of ones inner states Perhaps that is true, but the article says that there are other benefits. On the other hand, it's important to beware of any teacher that tells you that you need years of (paid) instruction to get any benefit from something.
- dschiptsov 13y ago
  Sigh, there is a classic (and popular) text called "Cutting through spiritual materialism" which explains what "improvements" they think they have attained. Even without any books, just look around, any dude who spent vacation in India or Tibet is cocksure that he is already enlightened, transformed, special - all those bearded, barefooted hipsters wandering in a popular tourist destinations, or some yogi-dressed Slavic youths, spending parent's money on weed and booze. It looks like a person who picked up few phrases from "learn Hindi in 21 days" and now claims that he know the language, while just ability to watch TV or read a newspaper understanding everything requires years and years of practice.
  - hosh 13y ago
    That is true, and in other circles, there's a derisive term for such people called "fluff bunnies". While there are grains of truth to this, derisiveness, though, isn't compassionate awareness. I remember a teacher writing about this, how Tibet used to have the same spiritual relationship to India as America now does to Tibet and India. This is a natural part of growing up, and of the nascent Western Buddhism flowering here. There's a long way to go, and it's fine. I do find it interesting you got downvoted though. I don't think that should have happened, but it's a fascinating observation of karma (no pun intended). What would downvoting your "attitude" accomplish? This is between you and yourself on the cushion.
mnemonicsloth 13y ago
The tone of this comment is not one I associate with self-awareness.
- dschiptsov 13y ago
  Why, there is no anger of hatred involved, just few under-controlled emotions.))
  - mnemonicsloth 13y ago
    Every one of us is a novice at almost everything, so contempt for the ambition of novices is an emotion worth controlling.
- hosh 13y ago
  Why not? I can tell you from my own practice, that you eventually become OK with things that arise and passes. That includes what non-meditators tend to consider as "negative" emotions. More to the point, what you associate with "self-awareness" is just that. An association. It is as real and unreal as the emotions driving this person to make that comment with that tone. Both are things to investigate, and if not examined, both can form obstacles to practice.
jessriedel 13y ago
Your comment has a couple of good points, but you put so much ire into it that it's definitely a net negative to the conversation (hence the downvotes). Consider re-writing it to take out the attitude and condense your claims. I'll upvote it.
- hosh 13y ago
  I don't see what the ire or the attitude has to do with being downvoted. That poster's comments and attitude is pretty typical for meditators along a certain stage of practice (in the insight cycles). Everyone will pass through that point eventually. Correction of this isn't something that needs to come from social pressure; it comes from continued practice on mindfulness. I commend this person for practicing and encourage him or her to keep going!
  - jessriedel 13y ago
    >I don't see what the ire or the attitude has to do with being downvoted. Not sure what you mean. Comments which have these properties or are otherwise not constructive to discussion are to be downvoted on HN. To an extent good points can outweigh inflammatory language (although taking out that language is always preferable). But having a modicum of content is not sufficient to justify something that destroys the level of the discussion.
hosh 13y ago
"As for rest of the nonsense, any more or less authoritative teacher will tell you that it requires years of deliberate practice to attain very basic level of being continuously aware and in control of ones inner states. " They say that because that is generally true, and people who come into this practice cold tend to have expectations of quick results that forms obstacles to the practice. However, I have met, and have experienced on my own, various inner states that themselves motivated me to start up a practice of meditation. That happens too. It results from biology, though some of those very same authoritative teachers might have other views on this. In any case, there is a reason that when teachers describe meditation to the mainstream, they will lower the standards to as low as it goes. 8-weeks. Sit for five minutes. Etc. Some sort of practice, no matter how watered down, has a beneficial effect, will tease out a tiny bit of self-realization for the person. As such, encouraging people to try it without talking about how enormous the task is, is itself a compassionate activity.
- dschiptsov 13y ago
  My objection is that what they have "measured" had nothing to do with meditation as a practice of developing a habit of continuous, effortless self-awareness, and that the practice itself, by definition, has nothing to do with morality.
  - hosh 13y ago
    So there are two separate things here. The first is whether or not developing a habit of continuous self-awareness is important. For the individual meditators like you and me, yeah, this is the goal. I don't expect others to try to reach this. It's not something that people who have not meditated, or who have not been graced with the realizations from meditation will understand why that is important. Until you reach that point, there is nothing in the world that will convince you of the importance. And even if you are persuaded that this is the standard, you're reacting to things inside of you that you are not aware of. You can't force someone to be mindful; why would you want to force someone to be continuously mindful? The second is why you are upset by this apparent lack in the article. Perhaps it is something to investigate on the cushion.
- 13y ago
portmanteaufu 13y ago
I do not know if it was your intent, but your comment came across as hostile and arrogant. The article doesn't assert that the participants had mastered anything. Novices experience the benefits of meditation to a degree. Even minimal sustained practice has been shown to increase focus and provide a sense of well being.

mjb 13y ago

> So, please, cut that 8-week-course crap out. What they "measured" is elevated self-esteem, or better self-confidence, or just felling special or even enlightened - any kind of these naive pre-mature "experiences" each and any novice had had. If a novice can improve themselves in only 8 weeks, that doesn't seem to imply that only practicing for 8 weeks is "crap". Rather, it seems to imply that an 8 week course may be truly valuable. It takes a great deal of daily practice to master chess, but even a few hours of instruction and the occasional game provides many people with pleasure, a chance for social interaction, and practice in careful thought. You don't need to truly master something for its practice to have value. > any more or less authoritative teacher will tell you that it requires years of deliberate practice to attain very basic level of being continuously aware and in control of ones inner states Perhaps that is true, but the article says that there are other benefits. On the other hand, it's important to beware of any teacher that tells you that you need years of (paid) instruction to get any benefit from something.

dschiptsov 13y ago
Sigh, there is a classic (and popular) text called "Cutting through spiritual materialism" which explains what "improvements" they think they have attained. Even without any books, just look around, any dude who spent vacation in India or Tibet is cocksure that he is already enlightened, transformed, special - all those bearded, barefooted hipsters wandering in a popular tourist destinations, or some yogi-dressed Slavic youths, spending parent's money on weed and booze. It looks like a person who picked up few phrases from "learn Hindi in 21 days" and now claims that he know the language, while just ability to watch TV or read a newspaper understanding everything requires years and years of practice.
- hosh 13y ago
  That is true, and in other circles, there's a derisive term for such people called "fluff bunnies". While there are grains of truth to this, derisiveness, though, isn't compassionate awareness. I remember a teacher writing about this, how Tibet used to have the same spiritual relationship to India as America now does to Tibet and India. This is a natural part of growing up, and of the nascent Western Buddhism flowering here. There's a long way to go, and it's fine. I do find it interesting you got downvoted though. I don't think that should have happened, but it's a fascinating observation of karma (no pun intended). What would downvoting your "attitude" accomplish? This is between you and yourself on the cushion.

mnemonicsloth 13y ago

The tone of this comment is not one I associate with self-awareness.

dschiptsov 13y ago
Why, there is no anger of hatred involved, just few under-controlled emotions.))
- mnemonicsloth 13y ago
  Every one of us is a novice at almost everything, so contempt for the ambition of novices is an emotion worth controlling.
hosh 13y ago
Why not? I can tell you from my own practice, that you eventually become OK with things that arise and passes. That includes what non-meditators tend to consider as "negative" emotions. More to the point, what you associate with "self-awareness" is just that. An association. It is as real and unreal as the emotions driving this person to make that comment with that tone. Both are things to investigate, and if not examined, both can form obstacles to practice.

jessriedel 13y ago

Your comment has a couple of good points, but you put so much ire into it that it's definitely a net negative to the conversation (hence the downvotes). Consider re-writing it to take out the attitude and condense your claims. I'll upvote it.

hosh 13y ago
I don't see what the ire or the attitude has to do with being downvoted. That poster's comments and attitude is pretty typical for meditators along a certain stage of practice (in the insight cycles). Everyone will pass through that point eventually. Correction of this isn't something that needs to come from social pressure; it comes from continued practice on mindfulness. I commend this person for practicing and encourage him or her to keep going!
- jessriedel 13y ago
  >I don't see what the ire or the attitude has to do with being downvoted. Not sure what you mean. Comments which have these properties or are otherwise not constructive to discussion are to be downvoted on HN. To an extent good points can outweigh inflammatory language (although taking out that language is always preferable). But having a modicum of content is not sufficient to justify something that destroys the level of the discussion.

hosh 13y ago

"As for rest of the nonsense, any more or less authoritative teacher will tell you that it requires years of deliberate practice to attain very basic level of being continuously aware and in control of ones inner states. " They say that because that is generally true, and people who come into this practice cold tend to have expectations of quick results that forms obstacles to the practice. However, I have met, and have experienced on my own, various inner states that themselves motivated me to start up a practice of meditation. That happens too. It results from biology, though some of those very same authoritative teachers might have other views on this. In any case, there is a reason that when teachers describe meditation to the mainstream, they will lower the standards to as low as it goes. 8-weeks. Sit for five minutes. Etc. Some sort of practice, no matter how watered down, has a beneficial effect, will tease out a tiny bit of self-realization for the person. As such, encouraging people to try it without talking about how enormous the task is, is itself a compassionate activity.

dschiptsov 13y ago
My objection is that what they have "measured" had nothing to do with meditation as a practice of developing a habit of continuous, effortless self-awareness, and that the practice itself, by definition, has nothing to do with morality.
- hosh 13y ago
  So there are two separate things here. The first is whether or not developing a habit of continuous self-awareness is important. For the individual meditators like you and me, yeah, this is the goal. I don't expect others to try to reach this. It's not something that people who have not meditated, or who have not been graced with the realizations from meditation will understand why that is important. Until you reach that point, there is nothing in the world that will convince you of the importance. And even if you are persuaded that this is the standard, you're reacting to things inside of you that you are not aware of. You can't force someone to be mindful; why would you want to force someone to be continuously mindful? The second is why you are upset by this apparent lack in the article. Perhaps it is something to investigate on the cushion.
13y ago

portmanteaufu 13y ago

I do not know if it was your intent, but your comment came across as hostile and arrogant. The article doesn't assert that the participants had mastered anything. Novices experience the benefits of meditation to a degree. Even minimal sustained practice has been shown to increase focus and provide a sense of well being.