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Not in the UK they wouldn't, no. Only in your barbarous country do such things (legally) happen in prisons. We recently had a debate over Ian Brady staying in a

by madaxe 13y ago

Not in the UK they wouldn't, no. Only in your barbarous country do such things (legally) happen in prisons. We recently had a debate over Ian Brady staying in a mental prison vs. prison prison, as under psychiatric care they can force feed you, but not in prison.

DanBC 13y ago
And only a limited number of people with mental health problems can be force fed. The person needs to be detained under section of the mental health act, and to lack capacity to make the decision.
- madaxe 13y ago
  And Ian Brady doesn't lack that capacity. The judgment to keep him in Broadmoor was yet another example of "the moral state", not abiding by the rule of law, and instead abiding by selective, moral justice.
thufry 13y ago
So they would let you die? I'm not sure that's clearly more humane.
- 9h1d9j809s 13y ago
  Yes, it is. If you make my life hell, at least give me the freedom to die.
- madaxe 13y ago
  Were I in the shoes of one of the kidnap victims at Guantanamo (for that is all they are - they are neither prisoners nor combatants, just abductees), I would not wish to continue that existence. The right to death is as important as the right to life.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims." And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently there. Our policies are strongly anti-suicide across the board. See: http://wagingnonviolence.org/feature/guantanamo-is-not-an-anomaly-prisoners-in-the-us-are-force-fed-every-day http://wagingnonviolence.org/feature/guantanamo-is-not-an-an....
    - epistasis 13y ago
      > but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. Wow, that is incredibly misinformed. And even if it were true (it is not), it does not justify torture. Torture is always despicable, and there's a permanent moral stain on the nation that perpetrates torture, no matter who is being tortured. There is no excuse. No excuse.
      - rayiner 13y ago
        Torture is despicable, but there is an ongoing debate about whether anything going on at Guantanamo (as opposed to Abu Ghraib) is actually torture under the international definitions. It's not a settled issue like you're making it out to be.
        yardie 13y ago
        > there is an ongoing debate Is this like the debate on climate change? Where 99.99% of the scientists agree it's man made, yet a few others think it's natural. > It's not a settled issue like you're making it out to be. Yeah, I think it's pretty much settled by everyone but the US government.
        tptacek 13y ago
        It seems pretty clear that torture did happen at/around GTMO, and that it ceased (modulo force feeding) under Obama.
- DanBC 13y ago
  People have the right to refuse medical treatment if they have capacity to make that decision. There is a range of choices - people die much sooner than they need to because they refuse blood, or people die a little quicker than they need to because they refuse painful cancer treatment. When someone refuses to eat they'll eventually need the medical treatment - force feeding - to keep them alive. Some of those people have capacity to make that decision. Others (people with anorexia) don't.

by madaxe 13y ago

DanBC 13y ago

And only a limited number of people with mental health problems can be force fed. The person needs to be detained under section of the mental health act, and to lack capacity to make the decision.

madaxe 13y ago
And Ian Brady doesn't lack that capacity. The judgment to keep him in Broadmoor was yet another example of "the moral state", not abiding by the rule of law, and instead abiding by selective, moral justice.

thufry 13y ago

So they would let you die? I'm not sure that's clearly more humane.

9h1d9j809s 13y ago
Yes, it is. If you make my life hell, at least give me the freedom to die.
madaxe 13y ago
Were I in the shoes of one of the kidnap victims at Guantanamo (for that is all they are - they are neither prisoners nor combatants, just abductees), I would not wish to continue that existence. The right to death is as important as the right to life.
- rayiner 13y ago
  Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims." And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently there. Our policies are strongly anti-suicide across the board. See: http://wagingnonviolence.org/feature/guantanamo-is-not-an-anomaly-prisoners-in-the-us-are-force-fed-every-day http://wagingnonviolence.org/feature/guantanamo-is-not-an-an....
  - epistasis 13y ago
    > but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. Wow, that is incredibly misinformed. And even if it were true (it is not), it does not justify torture. Torture is always despicable, and there's a permanent moral stain on the nation that perpetrates torture, no matter who is being tortured. There is no excuse. No excuse.
    - rayiner 13y ago
      Torture is despicable, but there is an ongoing debate about whether anything going on at Guantanamo (as opposed to Abu Ghraib) is actually torture under the international definitions. It's not a settled issue like you're making it out to be.
      - yardie 13y ago
        > there is an ongoing debate Is this like the debate on climate change? Where 99.99% of the scientists agree it's man made, yet a few others think it's natural. > It's not a settled issue like you're making it out to be. Yeah, I think it's pretty much settled by everyone but the US government.
      - tptacek 13y ago
        It seems pretty clear that torture did happen at/around GTMO, and that it ceased (modulo force feeding) under Obama.
DanBC 13y ago
People have the right to refuse medical treatment if they have capacity to make that decision. There is a range of choices - people die much sooner than they need to because they refuse blood, or people die a little quicker than they need to because they refuse painful cancer treatment. When someone refuses to eat they'll eventually need the medical treatment - force feeding - to keep them alive. Some of those people have capacity to make that decision. Others (people with anorexia) don't.