4 ms·

While I agree it is a disgrace, what do you plan to do with the detainees? If they weren't "terrorists" before, they most likely are now. Think about it, that'

While I agree it is a disgrace, what do you plan to do with the detainees? If they weren't "terrorists" before, they most likely are now. Think about it, that's the real problem. I'm not defending it, I think it should be closed too. These humans have been subjected to complete hell.

cabalamat 13y ago
If they want to die, why not jut let them?
- DanBC 13y ago
  Taking innocent taxi drivers, subjecting them to the "gift of democracy" that is extraordinary rendition and torture while being detained without trial or charge is already an effective recruiting tool for terrorists. Allowing the detainees to kill themselves turns them into martyrs, and becomes even more effective at turning people to violence. Don't forget that this behaviour just shifts the curve of moderateness towards extremism a little bit, but that makes extremism easier. People are more likely to donate money to organisations that promote violence; people turn a blind eye when they find out someone is planning something; people share information even if they're not going to use it themself, "Anti-West" sentiment is more acceptable, and so on. This means that the small number of actual terrorists find it easier to work.
  - speeder 13y ago
    US people don't realize how much US is hated... They are force fed so much propaganda on how US are heroes that go around the world saving people from evil, that they don't understand for example why lots of Brazillians cheered 9/11 (yes, Brazillians CHEERED 9/11, some even threw parties, the US people I knew that were here in Brazil acted very confused, not understanding at all why people would be happy that 10 thousand "good people" died)
    - jabbernotty 13y ago
      There were 3000 casualties.
      - speeder 13y ago
        My bad
      - DanBC 13y ago
        People didn't know that until some time after. There were 40,000 people in the buildings when the planes crashed.
    - jganetsk 13y ago
      Brazilians cheering 9/11, if true, is completely disgusting. It sounds like they are also fed some propaganda.
    - krapp 13y ago
      I think you may be conflating your own sadism with something normative and just. Despite your assertions elsewhere that the whole world is just waiting for an opportunity to turn the United States into a graveyard, most people around the world do not not, in fact, hate the United States so vehemently that 9/11 made them cheer. Most people around the world reacted the way human beings with empathy do, with horror and sadness. I would even bet most Brazilians didn't hold parties celebrating the bloodshed. Your point of view isn't normal. Please stop acting as if it is, and please stop acting as if that level of enmity represents something good and noble about the people of Brazil. You make your country look like a bunch of psychopaths.
      - speeder 13y ago
        Most brazillians did not celebrated 9/11, obviously. Most did not care. Several of those who did, were shocked, and sad, specially those that had relatives there. But several were VERY HAPPY, usually those that got screwed during the cold war. My point is: people forget, that when you make yourself a hated enemy, people WILL hate you, in irrational ways, it is easy to create terrorist and a vicious cycle of violence. Brazil up to WWII liked the US, bought craploads of US stuff, and even joined WWII for the US side despite the president being fascist and having connections to the Italian fascists (of course, the fact US offered a steel mill in bribe when Brazil had none, was a huge factor). During cold war, US backed the military coup here, and quickly things turned into "we vs them", we had during the cold war a US embassador kidnapped, citibank branches bombed or torched, english speaking soldiers killed (the most famous was two UK navy sailors that were here on vacation) and so on. What make you think, that after you make people believe you are their enemy, that you are at war with them, they will stop believing that after situation change? There are lots of people here that has a grudge not only with US, but with all of its citizens as well, injust as that might be, the destruction of the World Trade Center, a economic symbol of the US, and the attack on Pentagon, is something that several people around the world cheered (obviously more on middle east, where people threw wild parties in the street and shot upwards) because those people viewed it as the invincible bully being hurt for the first time, people saw it, horrible as the actual event was in numbers of civilians killed, as a successful war attack, revenge, justice, david hurting goliath, etc... People are NOT psychopaths, they are normal people, hurt by US government so deeply, that any chance they have to see it hurting back will make them happy, even if it means the deaths of thousands of innocents. This is what fuel wars... United States huge military is a deterrent for countries attacking it, but don't mistake that peace for the world agreeing with the US, I am very sure few countries would side with the US in a hypotetical world war with a level amount of military (ie: not US having alone half of the world military power, as current it is). I am very sure that if you leave a US citizen (any citizen, the most adorable citizen even) near one of the territories were PCC is popular (PCC is a huge organized crime thing here, created during the cold war with purpose of fighting US-backed government), people (normal people, civilians, not members of PCC) will be happy to do things to that citizen that is best not describe here...
StavrosK 13y ago
What else would you do with them, other than set them free? "Oh I have this guy in my basement I've been torturing for four years, I can't let him go now because he's going to want to kill me". Are you serious?
- donutz 13y ago
  I get your point, but really it's more like "Oh I have this guy in my basement I've been torturing for four years, I can't let him go now because he's going to want to kill my family who couldn't stop me from torturing this guy anyway".
- bbwharris 13y ago
  And then he does, and the media makes a big deal out of it and people cry out "never again", "how did we not see this coming?", "whos accountable?". Setting them free and closing the illegal prison is the right thing to do. If I was calling the shots I would close it and release them. BUT: I just see why they haven't done it yet. It's a quagmire, with extreme consequences. Sure, let a prison full of "suspected terrorists" out into the world, what could go wrong? How nice would it be to live in a world where we all trust each other and enjoy peace and harmony?
  - gee_totes 13y ago
    I don't think anything will go wrong if we let them go. Everyone knows that they will be monitored up the wazoo by the NSA. Any smart terrorist operative will not associate with the released prisoners. And the ones that do will provide a nice honeypot for the NSA. The real quagmire will be when the NSA picks up intel about the released prisoners and fails to pass it along to any other intelligence agencies. Then we'll be blinded by our own incompetence and go back to the media blame you mentioned in your comment.
PavlovsCat 13y ago
If they weren't "terrorists" before, they most likely are now. Think about it, that's the real problem. You speak as if the rest of the world isn't noticing wtf is happening there, including the families of the detainees. As if these people being kept there wouldn't motivate a lot more people to become terrorists, than freeing them would. This isn't even burning the village to save the village. This is nuking a whole hemisphere to turn off an alarm clock.
- bbwharris 13y ago
  That's an illuminating point. Indeed, a form of martyrdom is at work one way or another.
peterkelly 13y ago
One idea would be to bring them on to American soil and treat them under the same conditions as those held in US jails and in accordance with US law, instead of doing it in Cuba of all places.
- yannis 13y ago
  Another idea is to bring them to the US and treat them like normal citizens either charge them or let them go free.
morsch 13y ago
I don't see how you can be so sure the prisoners are most likely to be (if given the chance) terrorists now. I'm sure many will harbour extreme hate after what's been done to them, but most people don't deal with extreme hate by blowing other people up. Long-time prisoners of the FARC aren't given the third degree to make sure they don't intend to blow up Colombians or even go on a revenge spree against the FARC. Maybe many of these people just want to go home and try to forget the last 10 years of their life? All that said I understand that it's a terrible position to be in, having imprisoned these people for such a long time. The thing is, it just keeps getting worse and worse...

cabalamat 13y ago

If they want to die, why not jut let them?

DanBC 13y ago
Taking innocent taxi drivers, subjecting them to the "gift of democracy" that is extraordinary rendition and torture while being detained without trial or charge is already an effective recruiting tool for terrorists. Allowing the detainees to kill themselves turns them into martyrs, and becomes even more effective at turning people to violence. Don't forget that this behaviour just shifts the curve of moderateness towards extremism a little bit, but that makes extremism easier. People are more likely to donate money to organisations that promote violence; people turn a blind eye when they find out someone is planning something; people share information even if they're not going to use it themself, "Anti-West" sentiment is more acceptable, and so on. This means that the small number of actual terrorists find it easier to work.
- speeder 13y ago
  US people don't realize how much US is hated... They are force fed so much propaganda on how US are heroes that go around the world saving people from evil, that they don't understand for example why lots of Brazillians cheered 9/11 (yes, Brazillians CHEERED 9/11, some even threw parties, the US people I knew that were here in Brazil acted very confused, not understanding at all why people would be happy that 10 thousand "good people" died)
  - jabbernotty 13y ago
    There were 3000 casualties.
    - speeder 13y ago
      My bad
    - DanBC 13y ago
      People didn't know that until some time after. There were 40,000 people in the buildings when the planes crashed.
  - jganetsk 13y ago
    Brazilians cheering 9/11, if true, is completely disgusting. It sounds like they are also fed some propaganda.
  - krapp 13y ago
    I think you may be conflating your own sadism with something normative and just. Despite your assertions elsewhere that the whole world is just waiting for an opportunity to turn the United States into a graveyard, most people around the world do not not, in fact, hate the United States so vehemently that 9/11 made them cheer. Most people around the world reacted the way human beings with empathy do, with horror and sadness. I would even bet most Brazilians didn't hold parties celebrating the bloodshed. Your point of view isn't normal. Please stop acting as if it is, and please stop acting as if that level of enmity represents something good and noble about the people of Brazil. You make your country look like a bunch of psychopaths.
    - speeder 13y ago
      Most brazillians did not celebrated 9/11, obviously. Most did not care. Several of those who did, were shocked, and sad, specially those that had relatives there. But several were VERY HAPPY, usually those that got screwed during the cold war. My point is: people forget, that when you make yourself a hated enemy, people WILL hate you, in irrational ways, it is easy to create terrorist and a vicious cycle of violence. Brazil up to WWII liked the US, bought craploads of US stuff, and even joined WWII for the US side despite the president being fascist and having connections to the Italian fascists (of course, the fact US offered a steel mill in bribe when Brazil had none, was a huge factor). During cold war, US backed the military coup here, and quickly things turned into "we vs them", we had during the cold war a US embassador kidnapped, citibank branches bombed or torched, english speaking soldiers killed (the most famous was two UK navy sailors that were here on vacation) and so on. What make you think, that after you make people believe you are their enemy, that you are at war with them, they will stop believing that after situation change? There are lots of people here that has a grudge not only with US, but with all of its citizens as well, injust as that might be, the destruction of the World Trade Center, a economic symbol of the US, and the attack on Pentagon, is something that several people around the world cheered (obviously more on middle east, where people threw wild parties in the street and shot upwards) because those people viewed it as the invincible bully being hurt for the first time, people saw it, horrible as the actual event was in numbers of civilians killed, as a successful war attack, revenge, justice, david hurting goliath, etc... People are NOT psychopaths, they are normal people, hurt by US government so deeply, that any chance they have to see it hurting back will make them happy, even if it means the deaths of thousands of innocents. This is what fuel wars... United States huge military is a deterrent for countries attacking it, but don't mistake that peace for the world agreeing with the US, I am very sure few countries would side with the US in a hypotetical world war with a level amount of military (ie: not US having alone half of the world military power, as current it is). I am very sure that if you leave a US citizen (any citizen, the most adorable citizen even) near one of the territories were PCC is popular (PCC is a huge organized crime thing here, created during the cold war with purpose of fighting US-backed government), people (normal people, civilians, not members of PCC) will be happy to do things to that citizen that is best not describe here...

StavrosK 13y ago

What else would you do with them, other than set them free? "Oh I have this guy in my basement I've been torturing for four years, I can't let him go now because he's going to want to kill me". Are you serious?

donutz 13y ago
I get your point, but really it's more like "Oh I have this guy in my basement I've been torturing for four years, I can't let him go now because he's going to want to kill my family who couldn't stop me from torturing this guy anyway".
bbwharris 13y ago
And then he does, and the media makes a big deal out of it and people cry out "never again", "how did we not see this coming?", "whos accountable?". Setting them free and closing the illegal prison is the right thing to do. If I was calling the shots I would close it and release them. BUT: I just see why they haven't done it yet. It's a quagmire, with extreme consequences. Sure, let a prison full of "suspected terrorists" out into the world, what could go wrong? How nice would it be to live in a world where we all trust each other and enjoy peace and harmony?
- gee_totes 13y ago
  I don't think anything will go wrong if we let them go. Everyone knows that they will be monitored up the wazoo by the NSA. Any smart terrorist operative will not associate with the released prisoners. And the ones that do will provide a nice honeypot for the NSA. The real quagmire will be when the NSA picks up intel about the released prisoners and fails to pass it along to any other intelligence agencies. Then we'll be blinded by our own incompetence and go back to the media blame you mentioned in your comment.

PavlovsCat 13y ago

If they weren't "terrorists" before, they most likely are now. Think about it, that's the real problem. You speak as if the rest of the world isn't noticing wtf is happening there, including the families of the detainees. As if these people being kept there wouldn't motivate a lot more people to become terrorists, than freeing them would. This isn't even burning the village to save the village. This is nuking a whole hemisphere to turn off an alarm clock.

bbwharris 13y ago
That's an illuminating point. Indeed, a form of martyrdom is at work one way or another.

peterkelly 13y ago

One idea would be to bring them on to American soil and treat them under the same conditions as those held in US jails and in accordance with US law, instead of doing it in Cuba of all places.

yannis 13y ago
Another idea is to bring them to the US and treat them like normal citizens either charge them or let them go free.

morsch 13y ago

I don't see how you can be so sure the prisoners are most likely to be (if given the chance) terrorists now. I'm sure many will harbour extreme hate after what's been done to them, but most people don't deal with extreme hate by blowing other people up. Long-time prisoners of the FARC aren't given the third degree to make sure they don't intend to blow up Colombians or even go on a revenge spree against the FARC. Maybe many of these people just want to go home and try to forget the last 10 years of their life? All that said I understand that it's a terrible position to be in, having imprisoned these people for such a long time. The thing is, it just keeps getting worse and worse...