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> Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S. As if there was 1 person in the World who would have doubted that. It's scary that such titles are still be

> Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S. As if there was 1 person in the World who would have doubted that. It's scary that such titles are still being written.

hkmurakami 13y ago
Oh I am positive that there are millions in this very country who believe that he should have stayed and gone to trial, that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his actions are traitorous. I have to wonder on what grounds people can think this, when there are examples in seemingly any area of public cause where an individual succumbs to the might of heavyhanded authority of government. Probably those who judge a situation by what they see and read in the media and/or in the headlines, without stopping to really consider the facts (rather than opinions, which is what most news is these days) and make a judgment themselves. I can't say I'm completely immune from the influence of popular media, but I try.
- Svip 13y ago
  I assume the grounds from which people think this stems from a naïveté and unsubstantiated belief in one's country's principles. Particularly considering that the United States to many Americans to this day is more an idea than simply a country. This striking philosophical difference between Americans and other Western nationalities tends to give Americans a trust in their system where other nationalities would have drawn the line. Because even if Congress and the White House cannot be trusted, surely the Supreme Court and the judicial branch got our backs? If only it was so simple. Still, I don't mind Americans being keen on the idea they believe the United States is; but they need to realise that the United States is not that idea. And if it ever was, then it is certainly not any more.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    Yeah, I came to the conclusion that the USA is more like religion than country. The constitution is it's bible, its schools and malls are it's churches, the president is it's pope, Washington is it's Vatican, its military it's jihadists, the national anthem it's lords prayer, and so on. Americans believe in the USA in a way no other population believes in theirs. BTW, I make NO moral judgement, its just my own personal observation.
    - bmelton 13y ago
      I wish we could get Bible-like fanaticism over the Constitution. That would really, seriously, be the very best thing I could imagine happening to this country.
    - smalltalk 13y ago
      Really, you think the average American thinks more highly of his country than the average Frenchman? Have you ever spoken to a Frenchman?
      - molsongolden 13y ago
        There seems to be more questioning of the government though with the ability for people to dissent without being branded as terrorists, communists, etc... America is so large that it is near impossible to impact the status quo. There is so much blind patriotism and faith in the government that anyone who disagrees is quickly marginalized and branded as unpatriotic. "You don't like it? Leave."
      - drumdance 13y ago
        Since the US was formed the French have lived through five republics and a few empires. They know that government is provisional. This probably explains why they are so protective of their culture. There are still people alive today who lived under German rule.
  - atgm 13y ago
    > This striking philosophical difference between Americans and other Western nationalities tends to give Americans a trust in their system where other nationalities would have drawn the line. Really? So other Western countries would have... revolted? Rioted? Done something? The UK is pretty much a police state and there isn't much going on there. Germany seems to be doing its own intelligence-gathering work and snooping on its citizens, too.
    - Svip 13y ago
      You are right, they would not revolt or riot. But neither do they believe that their system is great, they are just too apathetic to do anything about it, because they are provided with too high a standard of living for them to riot; they have too much to lose. But they would not expect Snowden to get a fair trial in their own country (if we use the scenario that he was from their country and not the USA), which is what I meant. You can argue that this apathetic culture is worse than the Americans' naïveté. And to a point I would agree.
      - threeseed 13y ago
        Have you ever actually lived in the UK before ? Pretty sure most people wouldn't agree that their standard of living is so high that they wouldn't have something to lose by rioting. It's more a case that most people don't consider their online activity to be as precious as some others do.
- thomasjames 13y ago
  They think this on the grounds that he would have been tried as a civilian whereas Manning was court marshaled. I am surprised Ellsberg didn't mention that distinction. I do not know how the trial would work, though, given its sensitive subject matter. Ellsberg's position at RAND had a similar relationship to the defense establishment as Snowden's, and he was still considered a civilian.
- pyre 13y ago
  | that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his | actions are traitorous Ah, the classic, "Why won't you stop moving so that I can kill you," reaction.
- jonknee 13y ago
  I have a friend who has said almost exactly that. When pressed he can't really offer more other than that a trial is how the word will "get out". It's my opinion that if he's arrested he will never be heard from again.
  - aidenn0 13y ago
    Much more likely is that he gets put in solitary confinement until he is not capable of presenting a cognizant defense.
- darkarmani 13y ago
  > Oh I am positive that there are millions in this very country who believe that he should have stayed and gone to trial, that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his actions are traitorous. Of course. In WW2, when the Japanese were attacking the Philippines, you didn't see General MacArthur cowardly fleeing for Australia, right? Heroes stay and fight no matter what the odds are. He would have never gotten his medal of honor for fleeing to fight on a more favorable battlefield!
ramblerman 13y ago
"As if there was 1 person in the World who would have doubted that" I'm afraid you're the one that's out of touch, unfortunately. Just reading the comments below some of these articles (not hn) should make that painfully clear.
- el_fuser 13y ago
  So true. My Facebook feed will contain no less than a dozen 2nd amendment related posts at any given point in time, but nary a peep about the 4th. If you want to see action on this front, someone needs to educate the NRA that metadata provides the government much more information than any gun registration database ever could.
rtpg 13y ago
While I think he made the right call, this trope that the US will try to assassinate him/throw him in a secret CIA prison is so baseless. People have said over and over that the information he had was handed over to various org's, so killing him would only be bad. Justice dep't still has a legal obligation to try and get him home, but don't think they're going to be risking more diplomatic flack to get this guy home. Also, I don't know why people don't think he wouldn't get a fair trial. Manning is military and they do their things how they do them, but it's not like the US civilian courts have a reputation for absolute tyranny. Plus, standing in the spotlight like that.... no way he wouldn't have gotten a fair trial. I agree with the article that he wouldn't get bail now that he try to run (which is consistent with how bail works), but I think he could've gotten bail otherwise, if he had surrendered instead of run. And while he admitted to having released the documents, if he could argue the illegality of the programs shown, then he could actually go through whistleblower protections. Not saying he should have surrendered, just that this "The US has turned to tyranny" trope is tired and baseless.
- dasil003 13y ago
  Getting a fair trial is really not the issue since he clearly broke the law. It all hinges on PR. If the government was able to smear him enough that the majority of people considered him a traitor, then they would do their damnedest to make an example out of him. On the other hand, if people came to see Snowden in a positive light they wouldn't dare martyr him. Given the general apathy that we've seen from so many Americans (even Ira Glass from This American Life basically said "meh, what do I have to hide?"), I can't help but to sadly feel he made the right choice.
- acqq 13y ago
  but don't think they're going to be risking more diplomatic flack to get this guy home. How can you claim that when this http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/edward-snowden-saga-bolivia-accuses-europe-of-kidnapping-bolivian-president-in-forcing-evo-morales-plane-to-land-in-vienna-8682610.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/edward-snow... was absolutely inconceivable only some days ago, so much that the President explicitly claimed: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50149843n http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50149843n
alan_cx 13y ago
I don't know about that. Here, on HN, yes. But the population in general don't care about what the NSA get up to, don't care about Snowden, and seem to also think he is a traitor on a par with the cold war. As long as they believe that the gov are fighting the straw man of "Terror", they are happy bunnies. So, I suspect this article is more for them than the likes of us.
- smalltalk 13y ago
  What does "traitor on par with the [C]old [W]ar" mean? Do you know what "on par" means?

> Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S. As if there was 1 person in the World who would have doubted that. It's scary that such titles are still being written.

hkmurakami 13y ago

Oh I am positive that there are millions in this very country who believe that he should have stayed and gone to trial, that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his actions are traitorous. I have to wonder on what grounds people can think this, when there are examples in seemingly any area of public cause where an individual succumbs to the might of heavyhanded authority of government. Probably those who judge a situation by what they see and read in the media and/or in the headlines, without stopping to really consider the facts (rather than opinions, which is what most news is these days) and make a judgment themselves. I can't say I'm completely immune from the influence of popular media, but I try.

Svip 13y ago
I assume the grounds from which people think this stems from a naïveté and unsubstantiated belief in one's country's principles. Particularly considering that the United States to many Americans to this day is more an idea than simply a country. This striking philosophical difference between Americans and other Western nationalities tends to give Americans a trust in their system where other nationalities would have drawn the line. Because even if Congress and the White House cannot be trusted, surely the Supreme Court and the judicial branch got our backs? If only it was so simple. Still, I don't mind Americans being keen on the idea they believe the United States is; but they need to realise that the United States is not that idea. And if it ever was, then it is certainly not any more.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Yeah, I came to the conclusion that the USA is more like religion than country. The constitution is it's bible, its schools and malls are it's churches, the president is it's pope, Washington is it's Vatican, its military it's jihadists, the national anthem it's lords prayer, and so on. Americans believe in the USA in a way no other population believes in theirs. BTW, I make NO moral judgement, its just my own personal observation.
  - bmelton 13y ago
    I wish we could get Bible-like fanaticism over the Constitution. That would really, seriously, be the very best thing I could imagine happening to this country.
  - smalltalk 13y ago
    Really, you think the average American thinks more highly of his country than the average Frenchman? Have you ever spoken to a Frenchman?
    - molsongolden 13y ago
      There seems to be more questioning of the government though with the ability for people to dissent without being branded as terrorists, communists, etc... America is so large that it is near impossible to impact the status quo. There is so much blind patriotism and faith in the government that anyone who disagrees is quickly marginalized and branded as unpatriotic. "You don't like it? Leave."
    - drumdance 13y ago
      Since the US was formed the French have lived through five republics and a few empires. They know that government is provisional. This probably explains why they are so protective of their culture. There are still people alive today who lived under German rule.
- atgm 13y ago
  > This striking philosophical difference between Americans and other Western nationalities tends to give Americans a trust in their system where other nationalities would have drawn the line. Really? So other Western countries would have... revolted? Rioted? Done something? The UK is pretty much a police state and there isn't much going on there. Germany seems to be doing its own intelligence-gathering work and snooping on its citizens, too.
  - Svip 13y ago
    You are right, they would not revolt or riot. But neither do they believe that their system is great, they are just too apathetic to do anything about it, because they are provided with too high a standard of living for them to riot; they have too much to lose. But they would not expect Snowden to get a fair trial in their own country (if we use the scenario that he was from their country and not the USA), which is what I meant. You can argue that this apathetic culture is worse than the Americans' naïveté. And to a point I would agree.
    - threeseed 13y ago
      Have you ever actually lived in the UK before ? Pretty sure most people wouldn't agree that their standard of living is so high that they wouldn't have something to lose by rioting. It's more a case that most people don't consider their online activity to be as precious as some others do.
thomasjames 13y ago
They think this on the grounds that he would have been tried as a civilian whereas Manning was court marshaled. I am surprised Ellsberg didn't mention that distinction. I do not know how the trial would work, though, given its sensitive subject matter. Ellsberg's position at RAND had a similar relationship to the defense establishment as Snowden's, and he was still considered a civilian.
pyre 13y ago
| that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his | actions are traitorous Ah, the classic, "Why won't you stop moving so that I can kill you," reaction.
jonknee 13y ago
I have a friend who has said almost exactly that. When pressed he can't really offer more other than that a trial is how the word will "get out". It's my opinion that if he's arrested he will never be heard from again.
- aidenn0 13y ago
  Much more likely is that he gets put in solitary confinement until he is not capable of presenting a cognizant defense.
darkarmani 13y ago
> Oh I am positive that there are millions in this very country who believe that he should have stayed and gone to trial, that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his actions are traitorous. Of course. In WW2, when the Japanese were attacking the Philippines, you didn't see General MacArthur cowardly fleeing for Australia, right? Heroes stay and fight no matter what the odds are. He would have never gotten his medal of honor for fleeing to fight on a more favorable battlefield!

ramblerman 13y ago

"As if there was 1 person in the World who would have doubted that" I'm afraid you're the one that's out of touch, unfortunately. Just reading the comments below some of these articles (not hn) should make that painfully clear.

el_fuser 13y ago
So true. My Facebook feed will contain no less than a dozen 2nd amendment related posts at any given point in time, but nary a peep about the 4th. If you want to see action on this front, someone needs to educate the NRA that metadata provides the government much more information than any gun registration database ever could.

rtpg 13y ago

While I think he made the right call, this trope that the US will try to assassinate him/throw him in a secret CIA prison is so baseless. People have said over and over that the information he had was handed over to various org's, so killing him would only be bad. Justice dep't still has a legal obligation to try and get him home, but don't think they're going to be risking more diplomatic flack to get this guy home. Also, I don't know why people don't think he wouldn't get a fair trial. Manning is military and they do their things how they do them, but it's not like the US civilian courts have a reputation for absolute tyranny. Plus, standing in the spotlight like that.... no way he wouldn't have gotten a fair trial. I agree with the article that he wouldn't get bail now that he try to run (which is consistent with how bail works), but I think he could've gotten bail otherwise, if he had surrendered instead of run. And while he admitted to having released the documents, if he could argue the illegality of the programs shown, then he could actually go through whistleblower protections. Not saying he should have surrendered, just that this "The US has turned to tyranny" trope is tired and baseless.

dasil003 13y ago
Getting a fair trial is really not the issue since he clearly broke the law. It all hinges on PR. If the government was able to smear him enough that the majority of people considered him a traitor, then they would do their damnedest to make an example out of him. On the other hand, if people came to see Snowden in a positive light they wouldn't dare martyr him. Given the general apathy that we've seen from so many Americans (even Ira Glass from This American Life basically said "meh, what do I have to hide?"), I can't help but to sadly feel he made the right choice.
acqq 13y ago
but don't think they're going to be risking more diplomatic flack to get this guy home. How can you claim that when this http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/edward-snowden-saga-bolivia-accuses-europe-of-kidnapping-bolivian-president-in-forcing-evo-morales-plane-to-land-in-vienna-8682610.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/edward-snow... was absolutely inconceivable only some days ago, so much that the President explicitly claimed: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50149843n http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50149843n

alan_cx 13y ago

I don't know about that. Here, on HN, yes. But the population in general don't care about what the NSA get up to, don't care about Snowden, and seem to also think he is a traitor on a par with the cold war. As long as they believe that the gov are fighting the straw man of "Terror", they are happy bunnies. So, I suspect this article is more for them than the likes of us.

smalltalk 13y ago
What does "traitor on par with the [C]old [W]ar" mean? Do you know what "on par" means?