8 ms·

Ellsberg: Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S.

182 points by ghayes 13y ago

kimlelly 13y ago
> Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S. As if there was 1 person in the World who would have doubted that. It's scary that such titles are still being written.
- hkmurakami 13y ago
  Oh I am positive that there are millions in this very country who believe that he should have stayed and gone to trial, that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his actions are traitorous. I have to wonder on what grounds people can think this, when there are examples in seemingly any area of public cause where an individual succumbs to the might of heavyhanded authority of government. Probably those who judge a situation by what they see and read in the media and/or in the headlines, without stopping to really consider the facts (rather than opinions, which is what most news is these days) and make a judgment themselves. I can't say I'm completely immune from the influence of popular media, but I try.
  - Svip 13y ago
    I assume the grounds from which people think this stems from a naïveté and unsubstantiated belief in one's country's principles. Particularly considering that the United States to many Americans to this day is more an idea than simply a country. This striking philosophical difference between Americans and other Western nationalities tends to give Americans a trust in their system where other nationalities would have drawn the line. Because even if Congress and the White House cannot be trusted, surely the Supreme Court and the judicial branch got our backs? If only it was so simple. Still, I don't mind Americans being keen on the idea they believe the United States is; but they need to realise that the United States is not that idea. And if it ever was, then it is certainly not any more.
    - alan_cx 13y ago
      Yeah, I came to the conclusion that the USA is more like religion than country. The constitution is it's bible, its schools and malls are it's churches, the president is it's pope, Washington is it's Vatican, its military it's jihadists, the national anthem it's lords prayer, and so on. Americans believe in the USA in a way no other population believes in theirs. BTW, I make NO moral judgement, its just my own personal observation.
      - bmelton 13y ago
        I wish we could get Bible-like fanaticism over the Constitution. That would really, seriously, be the very best thing I could imagine happening to this country.
      - smalltalk 13y ago
        Really, you think the average American thinks more highly of his country than the average Frenchman? Have you ever spoken to a Frenchman?
        molsongolden 13y ago
        There seems to be more questioning of the government though with the ability for people to dissent without being branded as terrorists, communists, etc... America is so large that it is near impossible to impact the status quo. There is so much blind patriotism and faith in the government that anyone who disagrees is quickly marginalized and branded as unpatriotic. "You don't like it? Leave."
        drumdance 13y ago
        Since the US was formed the French have lived through five republics and a few empires. They know that government is provisional. This probably explains why they are so protective of their culture. There are still people alive today who lived under German rule.
    - atgm 13y ago
      > This striking philosophical difference between Americans and other Western nationalities tends to give Americans a trust in their system where other nationalities would have drawn the line. Really? So other Western countries would have... revolted? Rioted? Done something? The UK is pretty much a police state and there isn't much going on there. Germany seems to be doing its own intelligence-gathering work and snooping on its citizens, too.
  - thomasjames 13y ago
    They think this on the grounds that he would have been tried as a civilian whereas Manning was court marshaled. I am surprised Ellsberg didn't mention that distinction. I do not know how the trial would work, though, given its sensitive subject matter. Ellsberg's position at RAND had a similar relationship to the defense establishment as Snowden's, and he was still considered a civilian.
  - pyre 13y ago
    | that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his | actions are traitorous Ah, the classic, "Why won't you stop moving so that I can kill you," reaction.
  - jonknee 13y ago
    I have a friend who has said almost exactly that. When pressed he can't really offer more other than that a trial is how the word will "get out". It's my opinion that if he's arrested he will never be heard from again.
    - aidenn0 13y ago
      Much more likely is that he gets put in solitary confinement until he is not capable of presenting a cognizant defense.
  - darkarmani 13y ago
    > Oh I am positive that there are millions in this very country who believe that he should have stayed and gone to trial, that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his actions are traitorous. Of course. In WW2, when the Japanese were attacking the Philippines, you didn't see General MacArthur cowardly fleeing for Australia, right? Heroes stay and fight no matter what the odds are. He would have never gotten his medal of honor for fleeing to fight on a more favorable battlefield!
- ramblerman 13y ago
  "As if there was 1 person in the World who would have doubted that" I'm afraid you're the one that's out of touch, unfortunately. Just reading the comments below some of these articles (not hn) should make that painfully clear.
  - el_fuser 13y ago
    So true. My Facebook feed will contain no less than a dozen 2nd amendment related posts at any given point in time, but nary a peep about the 4th. If you want to see action on this front, someone needs to educate the NRA that metadata provides the government much more information than any gun registration database ever could.
- rtpg 13y ago
  While I think he made the right call, this trope that the US will try to assassinate him/throw him in a secret CIA prison is so baseless. People have said over and over that the information he had was handed over to various org's, so killing him would only be bad. Justice dep't still has a legal obligation to try and get him home, but don't think they're going to be risking more diplomatic flack to get this guy home. Also, I don't know why people don't think he wouldn't get a fair trial. Manning is military and they do their things how they do them, but it's not like the US civilian courts have a reputation for absolute tyranny. Plus, standing in the spotlight like that.... no way he wouldn't have gotten a fair trial. I agree with the article that he wouldn't get bail now that he try to run (which is consistent with how bail works), but I think he could've gotten bail otherwise, if he had surrendered instead of run. And while he admitted to having released the documents, if he could argue the illegality of the programs shown, then he could actually go through whistleblower protections. Not saying he should have surrendered, just that this "The US has turned to tyranny" trope is tired and baseless.
  - dasil003 13y ago
    Getting a fair trial is really not the issue since he clearly broke the law. It all hinges on PR. If the government was able to smear him enough that the majority of people considered him a traitor, then they would do their damnedest to make an example out of him. On the other hand, if people came to see Snowden in a positive light they wouldn't dare martyr him. Given the general apathy that we've seen from so many Americans (even Ira Glass from This American Life basically said "meh, what do I have to hide?"), I can't help but to sadly feel he made the right choice.
  - acqq 13y ago
    but don't think they're going to be risking more diplomatic flack to get this guy home. How can you claim that when this http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/edward-snowden-saga-bolivia-accuses-europe-of-kidnapping-bolivian-president-in-forcing-evo-morales-plane-to-land-in-vienna-8682610.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/edward-snow... was absolutely inconceivable only some days ago, so much that the President explicitly claimed: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50149843n http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50149843n
- alan_cx 13y ago
  I don't know about that. Here, on HN, yes. But the population in general don't care about what the NSA get up to, don't care about Snowden, and seem to also think he is a traitor on a par with the cold war. As long as they believe that the gov are fighting the straw man of "Terror", they are happy bunnies. So, I suspect this article is more for them than the likes of us.
  - smalltalk 13y ago
    What does "traitor on par with the [C]old [W]ar" mean? Do you know what "on par" means?
dotcoma 13y ago
He's right, unfortunately.
jayfuerstenberg 13y ago
He joins the ranks of the Dalai Lama now, representing his people from the safety of exile.
- kimlelly 13y ago
  Well, I think he has done more than enough for us - if we ever deserve people like him. Now, it's our turn.
runn1ng 13y ago
I am pretty sure that in US, he would be [classified] to [classified].
linuxhansl 13y ago
Wow, reading the comments on that article, it seems we're lost. Too many frightened Lemmings who out of fear and in the name of patriotism (apparently not understanding what that word even means) follow their government blindly. It was said before that a fearful and uneducated populous is easy to lead and manipulate. We're now seeing a demonstration of that.
- pyre 13y ago
  On the other hand, how many of them are either 1) government employees with a larger stake in the status quo than the rest of the population or 2) government shills meant to 'set the tone' for the conversation to something favourable to the government?
  - nextw33k 13y ago
    You ought to read tabloids and watch reality TV, there is no need for shills. There are enough bigots out there do feed the fire.
    - pyre 13y ago
      I wouldn't necessarily say that one needs to be a bigot to be pro-US government at this time. Drinking the Koolaid isn't the same as harbouring sever hatred.
- oleganza 13y ago
  It's no suprise since people are educated in government schools in their most crucial period of life. They are educated by state-licensed radio, television and newspapers. By state-approved books on the bookshelves of a state-approved shops. Who will exactly stand out and educate children of the nature of state if this way or another they lose some license or are being paid from tax money in the first place? Several generations already are out of touch with reality that the state is just a bunch of people with a monopoly of violence (justified in the eyes of similarly uneducated parents by piles of paperwork called "law" and "democracy"). State is a constant war against people covered with lies. The only productive way to get out of this situation is to 1) acknowledge that violence is never justified, risky and counter-productive 2) state violence is not justified, employs double standards all the time, and exists on religious beliefs in higher concepts like "country" or "society" that seemingly take precedence over individuals. And of course, you have to trust and follow authority, just like in good old dark ages. EDIT: before downvoting, consider replying what is factually wrong in my comment.
throwaway10001 13y ago
Eventually he will be brought in USA, governments will change wherever he ends up (unless he goes to Russia and China) and USA has a long memory. A lot of people have access to NSA super-secret info so fear needs to keep them in check.
beloch 13y ago
As negative as the press may seem from this little corner of the internet, I don't think the issue of NSA surveillance has made much of a ripple in the U.S. yet. The turnout for protests on the fourth was abysmal. People are still using Facebook and Gmail as if nothing has happened. Snowden only remains in the news because he is still free. If he had turned himself in on day 1 he'd have disappeared into some black judicial hole and the story he broke would now be long forgotten instead of merely ignored. If I were Snowden, I'd be seriously wondering if U.S. citizens are worth the trouble.
- derefr 13y ago
  > People are still using Facebook and Gmail as if nothing has happened. Personally, I'm still using Facebook and Gmail because I really do have nothing to hide. † † ...that I wasn't already routing over Tor, encrypting/signing with GPG et al, leaving the low-to-medium risk activity on the public net as a decoy. But I suspect a lot of people do think this without needing the proviso. These are the same people that compete to participate in reality TV shows like Big Brother, after all.
  - threeseed 13y ago
    Pretty sure the NSA would have a few Tor exit nodes under their control. Also those people you are referring to is the majority of the public i.e. your parents, grandparents, friends etc. If your entire life isn't centred around the internet it's easy to see why online privacy isn't a huge concern.
    - derefr 13y ago
      Tor exit nodes (and the commandeering thereof) are only relevant when you're accessing a public net website through Tor; not when accessing a Tor hidden service. If you can keep your activity entirely within the Tor "system" (basically, if your counterparties have foreknowledge to contact you over something like Tormail, rather than you having to "come to them" on a public site) then you'll be protected pretty completely. ...though, if it's something you actually care about, making that Tor connection from an internet cafe in a distant city can't hurt.
throwaway345 13y ago
I'm still conflicted over these Snowden revelations. On the one hand, it is (of course) an egregious (and probably illegal) breach of privacy. On the other hand, I think it's incredibly naive to believe that, once a technology exists, it won't be aggressively used to further the interests of nation-states and multinational corporations alike. What makes you think for a second that China and Russia aren't using (or at least in the process of building) the same sorts of systems?

182 points by ghayes 13y ago

> Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S. As if there was 1 person in the World who would have doubted that. It's scary that such titles are still being written.

hkmurakami 13y ago
Oh I am positive that there are millions in this very country who believe that he should have stayed and gone to trial, that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his actions are traitorous. I have to wonder on what grounds people can think this, when there are examples in seemingly any area of public cause where an individual succumbs to the might of heavyhanded authority of government. Probably those who judge a situation by what they see and read in the media and/or in the headlines, without stopping to really consider the facts (rather than opinions, which is what most news is these days) and make a judgment themselves. I can't say I'm completely immune from the influence of popular media, but I try.
- Svip 13y ago
  I assume the grounds from which people think this stems from a naïveté and unsubstantiated belief in one's country's principles. Particularly considering that the United States to many Americans to this day is more an idea than simply a country. This striking philosophical difference between Americans and other Western nationalities tends to give Americans a trust in their system where other nationalities would have drawn the line. Because even if Congress and the White House cannot be trusted, surely the Supreme Court and the judicial branch got our backs? If only it was so simple. Still, I don't mind Americans being keen on the idea they believe the United States is; but they need to realise that the United States is not that idea. And if it ever was, then it is certainly not any more.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    Yeah, I came to the conclusion that the USA is more like religion than country. The constitution is it's bible, its schools and malls are it's churches, the president is it's pope, Washington is it's Vatican, its military it's jihadists, the national anthem it's lords prayer, and so on. Americans believe in the USA in a way no other population believes in theirs. BTW, I make NO moral judgement, its just my own personal observation.
    - bmelton 13y ago
      I wish we could get Bible-like fanaticism over the Constitution. That would really, seriously, be the very best thing I could imagine happening to this country.
    - smalltalk 13y ago
      Really, you think the average American thinks more highly of his country than the average Frenchman? Have you ever spoken to a Frenchman?
      - molsongolden 13y ago
        There seems to be more questioning of the government though with the ability for people to dissent without being branded as terrorists, communists, etc... America is so large that it is near impossible to impact the status quo. There is so much blind patriotism and faith in the government that anyone who disagrees is quickly marginalized and branded as unpatriotic. "You don't like it? Leave."
      - drumdance 13y ago
        Since the US was formed the French have lived through five republics and a few empires. They know that government is provisional. This probably explains why they are so protective of their culture. There are still people alive today who lived under German rule.
  - atgm 13y ago
    > This striking philosophical difference between Americans and other Western nationalities tends to give Americans a trust in their system where other nationalities would have drawn the line. Really? So other Western countries would have... revolted? Rioted? Done something? The UK is pretty much a police state and there isn't much going on there. Germany seems to be doing its own intelligence-gathering work and snooping on its citizens, too.
- thomasjames 13y ago
  They think this on the grounds that he would have been tried as a civilian whereas Manning was court marshaled. I am surprised Ellsberg didn't mention that distinction. I do not know how the trial would work, though, given its sensitive subject matter. Ellsberg's position at RAND had a similar relationship to the defense establishment as Snowden's, and he was still considered a civilian.
- pyre 13y ago
  | that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his | actions are traitorous Ah, the classic, "Why won't you stop moving so that I can kill you," reaction.
- jonknee 13y ago
  I have a friend who has said almost exactly that. When pressed he can't really offer more other than that a trial is how the word will "get out". It's my opinion that if he's arrested he will never be heard from again.
  - aidenn0 13y ago
    Much more likely is that he gets put in solitary confinement until he is not capable of presenting a cognizant defense.
- darkarmani 13y ago
  > Oh I am positive that there are millions in this very country who believe that he should have stayed and gone to trial, that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his actions are traitorous. Of course. In WW2, when the Japanese were attacking the Philippines, you didn't see General MacArthur cowardly fleeing for Australia, right? Heroes stay and fight no matter what the odds are. He would have never gotten his medal of honor for fleeing to fight on a more favorable battlefield!
ramblerman 13y ago
"As if there was 1 person in the World who would have doubted that" I'm afraid you're the one that's out of touch, unfortunately. Just reading the comments below some of these articles (not hn) should make that painfully clear.
- el_fuser 13y ago
  So true. My Facebook feed will contain no less than a dozen 2nd amendment related posts at any given point in time, but nary a peep about the 4th. If you want to see action on this front, someone needs to educate the NRA that metadata provides the government much more information than any gun registration database ever could.
rtpg 13y ago
While I think he made the right call, this trope that the US will try to assassinate him/throw him in a secret CIA prison is so baseless. People have said over and over that the information he had was handed over to various org's, so killing him would only be bad. Justice dep't still has a legal obligation to try and get him home, but don't think they're going to be risking more diplomatic flack to get this guy home. Also, I don't know why people don't think he wouldn't get a fair trial. Manning is military and they do their things how they do them, but it's not like the US civilian courts have a reputation for absolute tyranny. Plus, standing in the spotlight like that.... no way he wouldn't have gotten a fair trial. I agree with the article that he wouldn't get bail now that he try to run (which is consistent with how bail works), but I think he could've gotten bail otherwise, if he had surrendered instead of run. And while he admitted to having released the documents, if he could argue the illegality of the programs shown, then he could actually go through whistleblower protections. Not saying he should have surrendered, just that this "The US has turned to tyranny" trope is tired and baseless.
- dasil003 13y ago
  Getting a fair trial is really not the issue since he clearly broke the law. It all hinges on PR. If the government was able to smear him enough that the majority of people considered him a traitor, then they would do their damnedest to make an example out of him. On the other hand, if people came to see Snowden in a positive light they wouldn't dare martyr him. Given the general apathy that we've seen from so many Americans (even Ira Glass from This American Life basically said "meh, what do I have to hide?"), I can't help but to sadly feel he made the right choice.
- acqq 13y ago
  but don't think they're going to be risking more diplomatic flack to get this guy home. How can you claim that when this http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/edward-snowden-saga-bolivia-accuses-europe-of-kidnapping-bolivian-president-in-forcing-evo-morales-plane-to-land-in-vienna-8682610.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/edward-snow... was absolutely inconceivable only some days ago, so much that the President explicitly claimed: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50149843n http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50149843n
alan_cx 13y ago
I don't know about that. Here, on HN, yes. But the population in general don't care about what the NSA get up to, don't care about Snowden, and seem to also think he is a traitor on a par with the cold war. As long as they believe that the gov are fighting the straw man of "Terror", they are happy bunnies. So, I suspect this article is more for them than the likes of us.
- smalltalk 13y ago
  What does "traitor on par with the [C]old [W]ar" mean? Do you know what "on par" means?

dotcoma 13y ago

He's right, unfortunately.

jayfuerstenberg 13y ago

He joins the ranks of the Dalai Lama now, representing his people from the safety of exile.

kimlelly 13y ago
Well, I think he has done more than enough for us - if we ever deserve people like him. Now, it's our turn.

runn1ng 13y ago

I am pretty sure that in US, he would be [classified] to [classified].

linuxhansl 13y ago

Wow, reading the comments on that article, it seems we're lost. Too many frightened Lemmings who out of fear and in the name of patriotism (apparently not understanding what that word even means) follow their government blindly. It was said before that a fearful and uneducated populous is easy to lead and manipulate. We're now seeing a demonstration of that.

pyre 13y ago
On the other hand, how many of them are either 1) government employees with a larger stake in the status quo than the rest of the population or 2) government shills meant to 'set the tone' for the conversation to something favourable to the government?
- nextw33k 13y ago
  You ought to read tabloids and watch reality TV, there is no need for shills. There are enough bigots out there do feed the fire.
  - pyre 13y ago
    I wouldn't necessarily say that one needs to be a bigot to be pro-US government at this time. Drinking the Koolaid isn't the same as harbouring sever hatred.
oleganza 13y ago
It's no suprise since people are educated in government schools in their most crucial period of life. They are educated by state-licensed radio, television and newspapers. By state-approved books on the bookshelves of a state-approved shops. Who will exactly stand out and educate children of the nature of state if this way or another they lose some license or are being paid from tax money in the first place? Several generations already are out of touch with reality that the state is just a bunch of people with a monopoly of violence (justified in the eyes of similarly uneducated parents by piles of paperwork called "law" and "democracy"). State is a constant war against people covered with lies. The only productive way to get out of this situation is to 1) acknowledge that violence is never justified, risky and counter-productive 2) state violence is not justified, employs double standards all the time, and exists on religious beliefs in higher concepts like "country" or "society" that seemingly take precedence over individuals. And of course, you have to trust and follow authority, just like in good old dark ages. EDIT: before downvoting, consider replying what is factually wrong in my comment.

throwaway10001 13y ago

Eventually he will be brought in USA, governments will change wherever he ends up (unless he goes to Russia and China) and USA has a long memory. A lot of people have access to NSA super-secret info so fear needs to keep them in check.

beloch 13y ago

As negative as the press may seem from this little corner of the internet, I don't think the issue of NSA surveillance has made much of a ripple in the U.S. yet. The turnout for protests on the fourth was abysmal. People are still using Facebook and Gmail as if nothing has happened. Snowden only remains in the news because he is still free. If he had turned himself in on day 1 he'd have disappeared into some black judicial hole and the story he broke would now be long forgotten instead of merely ignored. If I were Snowden, I'd be seriously wondering if U.S. citizens are worth the trouble.

derefr 13y ago
> People are still using Facebook and Gmail as if nothing has happened. Personally, I'm still using Facebook and Gmail because I really do have nothing to hide. † † ...that I wasn't already routing over Tor, encrypting/signing with GPG et al, leaving the low-to-medium risk activity on the public net as a decoy. But I suspect a lot of people do think this without needing the proviso. These are the same people that compete to participate in reality TV shows like Big Brother, after all.
- threeseed 13y ago
  Pretty sure the NSA would have a few Tor exit nodes under their control. Also those people you are referring to is the majority of the public i.e. your parents, grandparents, friends etc. If your entire life isn't centred around the internet it's easy to see why online privacy isn't a huge concern.
  - derefr 13y ago
    Tor exit nodes (and the commandeering thereof) are only relevant when you're accessing a public net website through Tor; not when accessing a Tor hidden service. If you can keep your activity entirely within the Tor "system" (basically, if your counterparties have foreknowledge to contact you over something like Tormail, rather than you having to "come to them" on a public site) then you'll be protected pretty completely. ...though, if it's something you actually care about, making that Tor connection from an internet cafe in a distant city can't hurt.

throwaway345 13y ago

I'm still conflicted over these Snowden revelations. On the one hand, it is (of course) an egregious (and probably illegal) breach of privacy. On the other hand, I think it's incredibly naive to believe that, once a technology exists, it won't be aggressively used to further the interests of nation-states and multinational corporations alike. What makes you think for a second that China and Russia aren't using (or at least in the process of building) the same sorts of systems?