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And I think it invokes the rarely considered idea that maybe democracy isn't the pinnacle of human social organization. Corrupt power structures may have final

And I think it invokes the rarely considered idea that maybe democracy isn't the pinnacle of human social organization. Corrupt power structures may have finally optimized for dominating a democratically organized society and we should be at least philosophizing about a favorable post-democracy world. I.e., what's more "democratic" than democracy?

tptacek 13y ago
This is a scary comment; it reifies the abstract concern Rayiner had upthread. Favorable post-Democracy though technology? That sounds like something Aldous Huxley would write about.
- eloisius 13y ago
  Using technology to improve our social organization doesn't have to mean some sort of dystopian techno-unanimity. In a more primitive time, would it be "scary" to suggest that through technological advancements like agriculture, writing, and calendars we could achieve a better, more just society?
  - tptacek 13y ago
    It's possible to look at the antagonists of most dystopian fiction and find the noble intentions. Rayiner's point wasn't that technology intrinsically subverts the social contract; only that some technologists seem to want it to.
    - eloisius 13y ago
      I feel like we're talking past one another so I'll shut up after this reply. I think this disagreement comes down to a difference of values and not just how they are implemented. Specifically, you seem to hold a notion of a social contract: a concept that I reject. Subverting a "contract" which has been forced upon me and to which I never agreed sounds like a noble endeavor to me, but I'm sure you'd be repulsed by the idea. Given our starkly different motivations, I believe the best outcome either of us could hope for in a debate is that we both remain reasoned and civil, as there's probably little chance of winning the other to our side.
      - tptacek 13y ago
        I agree about our prospects. Have a good rest of your weekend.
danielweber 13y ago
maybe democracy isn't the pinnacle of human social organization. Democracy sucks. But you know what sucks more? Everything else.
- eloisius 13y ago
  I believe the quote goes, "Everything else _we've tried_"

tptacek 13y ago

This is a scary comment; it reifies the abstract concern Rayiner had upthread. Favorable post-Democracy though technology? That sounds like something Aldous Huxley would write about.

eloisius 13y ago
Using technology to improve our social organization doesn't have to mean some sort of dystopian techno-unanimity. In a more primitive time, would it be "scary" to suggest that through technological advancements like agriculture, writing, and calendars we could achieve a better, more just society?
- tptacek 13y ago
  It's possible to look at the antagonists of most dystopian fiction and find the noble intentions. Rayiner's point wasn't that technology intrinsically subverts the social contract; only that some technologists seem to want it to.
  - eloisius 13y ago
    I feel like we're talking past one another so I'll shut up after this reply. I think this disagreement comes down to a difference of values and not just how they are implemented. Specifically, you seem to hold a notion of a social contract: a concept that I reject. Subverting a "contract" which has been forced upon me and to which I never agreed sounds like a noble endeavor to me, but I'm sure you'd be repulsed by the idea. Given our starkly different motivations, I believe the best outcome either of us could hope for in a debate is that we both remain reasoned and civil, as there's probably little chance of winning the other to our side.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      I agree about our prospects. Have a good rest of your weekend.

danielweber 13y ago

maybe democracy isn't the pinnacle of human social organization. Democracy sucks. But you know what sucks more? Everything else.

eloisius 13y ago
I believe the quote goes, "Everything else _we've tried_"