7 ms·

Oregon Proposes Investment Model For Student Loans

46 points by sethbannon 13y ago

schrodingersCat 13y ago
This is a brilliant approach! I'm sure it will look nothing like this by the time it comes for a vote on the house floor. Will probably have an anti-abortion rider and a lifetime payment cap by the time the lobbyists are done with it...
- MJR 13y ago
  They already voted - "The plan passed unanimously in Oregon's Senate on Monday and in the House the previous week. The state's Higher Education Coordinating Commission will next develop a pilot program and in 2015 lawmakers will decide whether to implement the program." http://abcnews.go.com/Business/oregon-legislature-approves-tuition-free-college-pilot-program/story?id=19577994#.UdnVy2RAR3Y http://abcnews.go.com/Business/oregon-legislature-approves-t...
  - schrodingersCat 13y ago
    Thanks for the update. I'm really glad this passed!
karamazov 13y ago
This has a critical flaw: those expecting to work in a high-paying field will self-select more traditional loans, whereas those pursuing a degree with less promising income expectations will disproportionately opt for this type of loan. If a university (or a state) chooses to force everyone to study under this model, they'll find that students expecting high-paying jobs will go elsewhere, and students expecting low-paying jobs will flock to those schools. Fundamentally, if I'm planning to study CS for the next four years, it's a good bet that I'll be making more money than someone getting an English degree; and I don't particulalry want to subsidize their education with my future earnings. There's a close parallel here with John Galt quitting his job in Atlas Shrugged.
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  How is this any different than simply raising taxes and providing education at minimal cost with no loans? As always, the US drops the ball again.
  - bajsejohannes 13y ago
    Small evolutions are easier than big revolutions.
    - enraged_camel 13y ago
      Evolutions take a long time. Can we as a nation really afford the luxury of waiting?
  - dangrossman 13y ago
    It's an opt-in tax only on the people that receive the benefits of the program. I actually like that idea; it wouldn't work for everything, but I think it can work for higher education.
    - toomuchtodo 13y ago
      So its like health insurance if you don't make it mandatory. Only the people who are going to maximize their utilization of it are going to opt-in. Hence why it has to be a blanket tax. How many people would opt-in to social security if it wasn't mandatory?
- MJR 13y ago
  At a 100K salary, over 24 years you would pay 72K. The same cost of 72K as a loan at 6.8% paid over 24 years would amount to $146,229.96 with total interest paid of $74,229.96 That's more interest than the cost of the loan. You would have to average more than 203K a year in salary in order for this to be the wrong choice. The average student isn't going to come close to that. Do you really expect that you'll be making more than an average of 203K over the next 24 years?
smsm42 13y ago
The thing with investment model is that VCs filter their applicants very carefully before investing. Rejecting many applicants that may seem and indeed later prove very worthy, but are not to the particular VCs liking. With higher ed today, anybody with a technically functioning brain can go into higher ed institution and get a paper saying "degree in whatever" on it. Investment can not work this way - in order to invest, one needs to select and reject. Current policy would aggressively resist the idea of selection - and indeed, how would you select high school students by their future earning potential? Nobody can do that with any degree of accuracy or any appearance of fairness and basic dignity. Without selection, however, the whole model would become uneconomical unless the sums charged are raised significantly. Free is very powerful attractor - so the number of people wanting to use it would explode.
codeonfire 13y ago
This betrays the true views of government with regards to education. Government's true goal is to add additional taxes on high earners for the rest of their careers to capture the premium they earn due to being the best and brightest. It would seem the goal is to marginalize the value of work. The only thing this is going to accomplish is to remove the incentive to study and move into advanced careers. If Oregon wants to put an additional income tax on college graduates, I suggest they think about what this will do to their graduation numbers. If anything, they should be giving tax breaks to college graduates.
count 13y ago
How is this different from indentured servitude? In any way what so ever? "Free trip to the colonies, in exchange for a chunk of your output for the next 20 years."
- MJR 13y ago
  For a free trip to the colonies, you paid with all of your output for the next 20 years(or longer) - not just 3%.
  - dnautics 13y ago
    fractional servitude is still servitude.
- dnautics 13y ago
  this is exactly what I think. It's bad enough that college loans are non-dischargeable (and therefore probably in violation of the 14th amendment). Now, the wage garnishment were voluntarily terminatable, that's another story.
- ceejayoz 13y ago
  Indentured servants weren't allowed to wind up unemployed or to pick a less lucrative career than the person they were indentured to might prefer.
- dangrossman 13y ago
  > How is this different from indentured servitude? If the state raised a 2% income tax on everyone to pay for free college education, instead of a 3% income tax on students getting a free college education, would that also be indentured servitude? Are all taxpayers indentured servants of the state?
  - count 13y ago
    You can leave taxes behind by moving / etc. You won't be allowed to leave this behind in any sense.
- 13y ago
scotty79 13y ago
I propose different model. Either you'll pay for my education to become engineer who'll pimp up your self-driving flying car, or I'll become uneducated mugger who'll beat you up and steal your stuff or I'll become uneducated cop who'll beat you up and shoot your dog for not respecting my authorita.
jberryman 13y ago
One nice thing about this is it would seem to more directly incentivize state universities to provide a curriculum that maximizes student earning potential; I think that's a great thing especially for people who've chosen their fields for reasons other than money. 25 years is a somewhat scary number, but this very exciting.
dano414 13y ago
1. This s not a bad idea. 2. Student loans should have zero interest. 3. Don't take out student loans for any school that is for profit, or advertises on T.V.. 4. Remember student loans are not bankruptable. 5. Your interests will change as you age. 6. If you can swing it, get a bachelor's degree. 7. I despised "networking". I made friends with people I truely liked. Well, I'm paying for it now. I hate to say this, but force youself to be friends with "people of means". I know they have the personalities of drift wood. 8. With the right direction; I feel an ambitious student could lean what they need off the Internet. 9. If you do make a lot of money in your life--Remember what it was like to have nothing. 10. Oh, yea--really think about marriage. I'm not sure it's necessary anymore.
awt 13y ago
No reporting on this idea ever discusses what appears to be a fatal flaw in the basic idea: there is still no incentive for universities to lower their costs. They can still charge as much as they want for an english degree and the state pays them for it up front. The public is on the hook for the bill when the english major fails to get a job. EDIT: Just wanted to add that this is the sort of brain-dead reporting that allowed the student loan industry to essentially socialize loan losses by not permitting students to default on student loans and by allowing the federal government to guarantee them, subsequently allowing education costs to sky-rocket.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  The incentives are actually worse than the student loan model, since the incentives to the student to major in something that makes money are now reduced.
Ensorceled 13y ago
I think education should be covered under the social contract ... "we'll give you a good education, you pay your taxes and pay off that huge debt we accumulated". I'm not sure how we expect these next few generations to pay off their rapidly increasing student loans, deal with the massive debt we are leaving them with AND fund social security/medicad.
- prostoalex 13y ago
  So they're not employable enough to cover their loans, but suddenly employable enough to boost tax revenues?
  - Ensorceled 13y ago
    My point is that we can't keep loading them up with debt, both personal and institutional. I'm not sure what your point is.

46 points by sethbannon 13y ago

This is a brilliant approach! I'm sure it will look nothing like this by the time it comes for a vote on the house floor. Will probably have an anti-abortion rider and a lifetime payment cap by the time the lobbyists are done with it...

MJR 13y ago
They already voted - "The plan passed unanimously in Oregon's Senate on Monday and in the House the previous week. The state's Higher Education Coordinating Commission will next develop a pilot program and in 2015 lawmakers will decide whether to implement the program." http://abcnews.go.com/Business/oregon-legislature-approves-tuition-free-college-pilot-program/story?id=19577994#.UdnVy2RAR3Y http://abcnews.go.com/Business/oregon-legislature-approves-t...
- schrodingersCat 13y ago
  Thanks for the update. I'm really glad this passed!

karamazov 13y ago

This has a critical flaw: those expecting to work in a high-paying field will self-select more traditional loans, whereas those pursuing a degree with less promising income expectations will disproportionately opt for this type of loan. If a university (or a state) chooses to force everyone to study under this model, they'll find that students expecting high-paying jobs will go elsewhere, and students expecting low-paying jobs will flock to those schools. Fundamentally, if I'm planning to study CS for the next four years, it's a good bet that I'll be making more money than someone getting an English degree; and I don't particulalry want to subsidize their education with my future earnings. There's a close parallel here with John Galt quitting his job in Atlas Shrugged.

toomuchtodo 13y ago
How is this any different than simply raising taxes and providing education at minimal cost with no loans? As always, the US drops the ball again.
- bajsejohannes 13y ago
  Small evolutions are easier than big revolutions.
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    Evolutions take a long time. Can we as a nation really afford the luxury of waiting?
- dangrossman 13y ago
  It's an opt-in tax only on the people that receive the benefits of the program. I actually like that idea; it wouldn't work for everything, but I think it can work for higher education.
  - toomuchtodo 13y ago
    So its like health insurance if you don't make it mandatory. Only the people who are going to maximize their utilization of it are going to opt-in. Hence why it has to be a blanket tax. How many people would opt-in to social security if it wasn't mandatory?
MJR 13y ago
At a 100K salary, over 24 years you would pay 72K. The same cost of 72K as a loan at 6.8% paid over 24 years would amount to $146,229.96 with total interest paid of $74,229.96 That's more interest than the cost of the loan. You would have to average more than 203K a year in salary in order for this to be the wrong choice. The average student isn't going to come close to that. Do you really expect that you'll be making more than an average of 203K over the next 24 years?

smsm42 13y ago

The thing with investment model is that VCs filter their applicants very carefully before investing. Rejecting many applicants that may seem and indeed later prove very worthy, but are not to the particular VCs liking. With higher ed today, anybody with a technically functioning brain can go into higher ed institution and get a paper saying "degree in whatever" on it. Investment can not work this way - in order to invest, one needs to select and reject. Current policy would aggressively resist the idea of selection - and indeed, how would you select high school students by their future earning potential? Nobody can do that with any degree of accuracy or any appearance of fairness and basic dignity. Without selection, however, the whole model would become uneconomical unless the sums charged are raised significantly. Free is very powerful attractor - so the number of people wanting to use it would explode.

codeonfire 13y ago

This betrays the true views of government with regards to education. Government's true goal is to add additional taxes on high earners for the rest of their careers to capture the premium they earn due to being the best and brightest. It would seem the goal is to marginalize the value of work. The only thing this is going to accomplish is to remove the incentive to study and move into advanced careers. If Oregon wants to put an additional income tax on college graduates, I suggest they think about what this will do to their graduation numbers. If anything, they should be giving tax breaks to college graduates.

count 13y ago

How is this different from indentured servitude? In any way what so ever? "Free trip to the colonies, in exchange for a chunk of your output for the next 20 years."

MJR 13y ago
For a free trip to the colonies, you paid with all of your output for the next 20 years(or longer) - not just 3%.
- dnautics 13y ago
  fractional servitude is still servitude.
dnautics 13y ago
this is exactly what I think. It's bad enough that college loans are non-dischargeable (and therefore probably in violation of the 14th amendment). Now, the wage garnishment were voluntarily terminatable, that's another story.
ceejayoz 13y ago
Indentured servants weren't allowed to wind up unemployed or to pick a less lucrative career than the person they were indentured to might prefer.
dangrossman 13y ago
> How is this different from indentured servitude? If the state raised a 2% income tax on everyone to pay for free college education, instead of a 3% income tax on students getting a free college education, would that also be indentured servitude? Are all taxpayers indentured servants of the state?
- count 13y ago
  You can leave taxes behind by moving / etc. You won't be allowed to leave this behind in any sense.
13y ago

scotty79 13y ago

I propose different model. Either you'll pay for my education to become engineer who'll pimp up your self-driving flying car, or I'll become uneducated mugger who'll beat you up and steal your stuff or I'll become uneducated cop who'll beat you up and shoot your dog for not respecting my authorita.

jberryman 13y ago

One nice thing about this is it would seem to more directly incentivize state universities to provide a curriculum that maximizes student earning potential; I think that's a great thing especially for people who've chosen their fields for reasons other than money. 25 years is a somewhat scary number, but this very exciting.

dano414 13y ago

1. This s not a bad idea. 2. Student loans should have zero interest. 3. Don't take out student loans for any school that is for profit, or advertises on T.V.. 4. Remember student loans are not bankruptable. 5. Your interests will change as you age. 6. If you can swing it, get a bachelor's degree. 7. I despised "networking". I made friends with people I truely liked. Well, I'm paying for it now. I hate to say this, but force youself to be friends with "people of means". I know they have the personalities of drift wood. 8. With the right direction; I feel an ambitious student could lean what they need off the Internet. 9. If you do make a lot of money in your life--Remember what it was like to have nothing. 10. Oh, yea--really think about marriage. I'm not sure it's necessary anymore.

awt 13y ago

No reporting on this idea ever discusses what appears to be a fatal flaw in the basic idea: there is still no incentive for universities to lower their costs. They can still charge as much as they want for an english degree and the state pays them for it up front. The public is on the hook for the bill when the english major fails to get a job. EDIT: Just wanted to add that this is the sort of brain-dead reporting that allowed the student loan industry to essentially socialize loan losses by not permitting students to default on student loans and by allowing the federal government to guarantee them, subsequently allowing education costs to sky-rocket.

yummyfajitas 13y ago
The incentives are actually worse than the student loan model, since the incentives to the student to major in something that makes money are now reduced.

Ensorceled 13y ago

I think education should be covered under the social contract ... "we'll give you a good education, you pay your taxes and pay off that huge debt we accumulated". I'm not sure how we expect these next few generations to pay off their rapidly increasing student loans, deal with the massive debt we are leaving them with AND fund social security/medicad.

prostoalex 13y ago
So they're not employable enough to cover their loans, but suddenly employable enough to boost tax revenues?
- Ensorceled 13y ago
  My point is that we can't keep loading them up with debt, both personal and institutional. I'm not sure what your point is.