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This is a somewhat ugly and self-aggrandizing view. It's easy to let people you don't know and will never meet become sub-human, but it's dangerous and harmful.

This is a somewhat ugly and self-aggrandizing view. It's easy to let people you don't know and will never meet become sub-human, but it's dangerous and harmful. The relevant xkcd is of course, http://xkcd.com/610/ http://xkcd.com/610/. I don't presume to know why most people are not particularly vocal on these matters, but it's certainly not because they lack critical thought.

chc 13y ago
Describing them as sheep seems a lot less dehumanizing than depicting them as out of their minds with fear.
endtime 13y ago
Do you have an explanation for why OP is wrong beyond that you find his claim aesthetically displeasing?
- czr80 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    If someone says "most people are peasants", why would that be a statement about their personality, rather than their situation? To me that's still an objection to something read into it.
Houshalter 13y ago
It's not wrong though. Most people don't care about politics. They don't research economics or anything like that, at best they hear the news sometimes and discuss stuff with their friends. That doesn't make them sub-human. There is no real incentive to care a lot about politics or do all the research and thinking necessary to come to correct conclusions. It's not like your vote is going to change the outcome of the election. But no it's not terribly self-aggrandizing to assume that most people don't have a lot of interest or education in politics. It's true.
- tolmasky 13y ago
  This is precisely it: its not economically beneficial to be involved in politics, unless you basically make it your absolute sole concern. That is to say, there are clear benefits to becoming a politician, or a lobbyist, or interest group. However, just becoming "informed" generally has a lot of negatives (depression), with no real positives (as you said, its not like you can do much about it other than complain). So unless your goal is to make a living in politics in one way or another, it is completely rational to be apathetic towards politics and put your focus somewhere else.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >This is precisely it: its not economically beneficial to be involved in politics That was the case at other times and places too. And their solution to that, was to shame citizens that only cared for what's economically beneficial. The solution is to make active participation in politics (= active citizenship) a virtue that people want to be identified with in the same way being "in fashion", "in shape" or "rich" is one. Of course we have the contrary. Active participation is actually discouraged -- except if you are a career politician.
    - AnthonyMouse 13y ago
      A huge, enormous part of this is having a vigilant press. It's impossible for everyone to individually do investigative reporting on every relevant issue. You may be able to shame people into reading good investigative reporting but first somebody has to write it. That is really where we've failed today: People get their news from outlets that run stories about Obama's birth certificate and what color Phil Zimmerman's lawyer's tie is and what a shame it is that the cops have dirty shotguns (never mind that the dirt is the blood of innocent civilians' innocent puppies) so now we had better give them a trillion more dollars for additional military surplus equipment or the terrorists will win. Job One should really be to solve the problem that the most popular news network is also the most factually inaccurate.
      - swordswinger12 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
finallyposting 13y ago
The xkcd presents a straw man. Occasionally but rarely I have seen "false consciousness" and "you are not awake" type claims as presented in the comic being made on this board. However, these types of claims are rare in comparison to complaints about specific majority viewpoints that reveal a complete breakdown of abstract thinking or simply absurd thinking. One of the strongest times I've ever been sympathetic to the "people are peasants" viewpoints was during my college years in Alabama. During that time Alabama finally voted on removing anti-miscegenation laws from its books. 3/4 of whites voted to keep them (the removal passing due only to a few whites like myself and the large voting block of blacks). The people were particularly vocal and they lacked critical thought. If it's "ugly and self-aggrandizing" to assume that, for example, my post-doc advisor's parents should have been allowed to marry (and by extension him to exist) then I hope my ugliness runs straight to the bone and my arrogance knows no end.
speeder 13y ago
Here in Brazil not only people are usually like that (the "shocking" protests here, were still a minority... 1 million people in total, spread over the entire country, when the country has 200 million people... Compare that with european countries with a history of population fueled government changes, that regularly do protests with more than 1 million people and have less population), but people in Brazil are PROUD of it. Here when you attempt to talk about politics, a common reply is: "Dude, I don't care, and I like it that way, don't come with that politics bullshit toward me." This applies even during the elections... In fact, here vote is mandatory, because when it wasn't, less than 5% voted at all, but making vote mandatory only made the thing poisonous, people vote because they must, usually on whoever they see most on TV, or some random candidate or another, if you ask a random brazillian who he voted for as representative, most of them don't remember at all, not even the party they voted for. Also we have plenty of proof, that all elections since electronics ballot were introduced here, were cheated, and people DON'T CARE. I show videos of people hacking our machines and showing how they can steer election to whatever way they want, and most people react with complete apathy, they feel that politics is irrelevant, that all politicians are the same, thus it does not matter if whoever wins won cheating or not, because the result is not important to them.
- philbarr 13y ago
  Obligatory Douglas Adams quote, from Thanks For All The Fish: "It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..." "You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?" "No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like to straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people." "Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy." "I did," said ford. "It is." "So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?" "It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want." "You mean they actually vote for the lizards?" "Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course." "But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?" "Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?" "What?" "I said," said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, "have you got any gin?" "I'll look. Tell me about the lizards." Ford shrugged again. "Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happened to them," he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it."
unclebucknasty 13y ago
In a strange twist, I think one of the problems is that the more we celebrate the American ideal and elevate it above other nations, etc., the more difficult it becomes for people to mobilize for change, or even believe that change is necessary. It's a strange groupthink that makes anything our government does the de facto morally superior action. It's an inherent trust by the masses that turn questioners into conspiracy theorists. The irony, of course, is that mentaility among the populace is perhaps the single most destructive threat to a true democracy, which demands vigilance. And all of this is propped up by a corporate-political state that controls a media, which works tirelessly to maintain the image while also distracting us to no end with trivialities.

chc 13y ago

Describing them as sheep seems a lot less dehumanizing than depicting them as out of their minds with fear.

endtime 13y ago

Do you have an explanation for why OP is wrong beyond that you find his claim aesthetically displeasing?

czr80 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  If someone says "most people are peasants", why would that be a statement about their personality, rather than their situation? To me that's still an objection to something read into it.

Houshalter 13y ago

It's not wrong though. Most people don't care about politics. They don't research economics or anything like that, at best they hear the news sometimes and discuss stuff with their friends. That doesn't make them sub-human. There is no real incentive to care a lot about politics or do all the research and thinking necessary to come to correct conclusions. It's not like your vote is going to change the outcome of the election. But no it's not terribly self-aggrandizing to assume that most people don't have a lot of interest or education in politics. It's true.

tolmasky 13y ago
This is precisely it: its not economically beneficial to be involved in politics, unless you basically make it your absolute sole concern. That is to say, there are clear benefits to becoming a politician, or a lobbyist, or interest group. However, just becoming "informed" generally has a lot of negatives (depression), with no real positives (as you said, its not like you can do much about it other than complain). So unless your goal is to make a living in politics in one way or another, it is completely rational to be apathetic towards politics and put your focus somewhere else.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >This is precisely it: its not economically beneficial to be involved in politics That was the case at other times and places too. And their solution to that, was to shame citizens that only cared for what's economically beneficial. The solution is to make active participation in politics (= active citizenship) a virtue that people want to be identified with in the same way being "in fashion", "in shape" or "rich" is one. Of course we have the contrary. Active participation is actually discouraged -- except if you are a career politician.
  - AnthonyMouse 13y ago
    A huge, enormous part of this is having a vigilant press. It's impossible for everyone to individually do investigative reporting on every relevant issue. You may be able to shame people into reading good investigative reporting but first somebody has to write it. That is really where we've failed today: People get their news from outlets that run stories about Obama's birth certificate and what color Phil Zimmerman's lawyer's tie is and what a shame it is that the cops have dirty shotguns (never mind that the dirt is the blood of innocent civilians' innocent puppies) so now we had better give them a trillion more dollars for additional military surplus equipment or the terrorists will win. Job One should really be to solve the problem that the most popular news network is also the most factually inaccurate.
    - swordswinger12 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

finallyposting 13y ago

The xkcd presents a straw man. Occasionally but rarely I have seen "false consciousness" and "you are not awake" type claims as presented in the comic being made on this board. However, these types of claims are rare in comparison to complaints about specific majority viewpoints that reveal a complete breakdown of abstract thinking or simply absurd thinking. One of the strongest times I've ever been sympathetic to the "people are peasants" viewpoints was during my college years in Alabama. During that time Alabama finally voted on removing anti-miscegenation laws from its books. 3/4 of whites voted to keep them (the removal passing due only to a few whites like myself and the large voting block of blacks). The people were particularly vocal and they lacked critical thought. If it's "ugly and self-aggrandizing" to assume that, for example, my post-doc advisor's parents should have been allowed to marry (and by extension him to exist) then I hope my ugliness runs straight to the bone and my arrogance knows no end.

speeder 13y ago

Here in Brazil not only people are usually like that (the "shocking" protests here, were still a minority... 1 million people in total, spread over the entire country, when the country has 200 million people... Compare that with european countries with a history of population fueled government changes, that regularly do protests with more than 1 million people and have less population), but people in Brazil are PROUD of it. Here when you attempt to talk about politics, a common reply is: "Dude, I don't care, and I like it that way, don't come with that politics bullshit toward me." This applies even during the elections... In fact, here vote is mandatory, because when it wasn't, less than 5% voted at all, but making vote mandatory only made the thing poisonous, people vote because they must, usually on whoever they see most on TV, or some random candidate or another, if you ask a random brazillian who he voted for as representative, most of them don't remember at all, not even the party they voted for. Also we have plenty of proof, that all elections since electronics ballot were introduced here, were cheated, and people DON'T CARE. I show videos of people hacking our machines and showing how they can steer election to whatever way they want, and most people react with complete apathy, they feel that politics is irrelevant, that all politicians are the same, thus it does not matter if whoever wins won cheating or not, because the result is not important to them.

philbarr 13y ago
Obligatory Douglas Adams quote, from Thanks For All The Fish: "It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..." "You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?" "No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like to straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people." "Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy." "I did," said ford. "It is." "So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?" "It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want." "You mean they actually vote for the lizards?" "Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course." "But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?" "Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?" "What?" "I said," said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, "have you got any gin?" "I'll look. Tell me about the lizards." Ford shrugged again. "Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happened to them," he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it."

unclebucknasty 13y ago

In a strange twist, I think one of the problems is that the more we celebrate the American ideal and elevate it above other nations, etc., the more difficult it becomes for people to mobilize for change, or even believe that change is necessary. It's a strange groupthink that makes anything our government does the de facto morally superior action. It's an inherent trust by the masses that turn questioners into conspiracy theorists. The irony, of course, is that mentaility among the populace is perhaps the single most destructive threat to a true democracy, which demands vigilance. And all of this is propped up by a corporate-political state that controls a media, which works tirelessly to maintain the image while also distracting us to no end with trivialities.