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Are there any reliable statistics quantifying this? I found some numbers for Germany on Wikipedia [1] but not for the US. The article states that per year for t

by danbruc 13y ago

Are there any reliable statistics quantifying this? I found some numbers for Germany on Wikipedia [1] but not for the US. The article states that per year for the period of 2007 to 2011 the German police fired between 36 and 57 bullets at humans killing between 6 and 12 of them. Older numbers are less reliable but similar regarding the number of people killed (peak since 1970 24 in 1983) but with a larger number of bullets fired where reported. Are the numbers for the USA way worse after compensating for the difference in population? [1] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_in_Deutschland http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_in_D...

citizens 13y ago
Some numbers from a 2011 NYPD report (only New York City): Situations where firearms were discharged 36 - Adversarial Conflict 36 - Animal Attack 15 - Unintentional Discharge 02 - Unauthorized Use 03 - Suicide Attempt --- 124 - Total officers firing 416 - Total shots fired 003 - Total officers shot and injured by subject 001 - Total officers shot and killed by subject 019 - Total subjects shot and injured by officer 009 - Total subjects shot and killed by officer http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/nypd_annual_firearms_discharge_report_2011.pdf http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_plan...
hammerzeit 13y ago
I'm astonished by the total lack of conversation around the actual data here. Both the article itself and the discussion below are predicated on the assumption that this is a rampant problem in the USA, but not a single subthread on the actual incidence of this. I'd expect better from Hacker News. For what it's worth, Wikipedia has a complete list of people killed by US Police Officers and the police reports from them. In 2012, there were 587 people killed by police [1]. This is much, much larger than in Germany, even accounting for population difference. I would argue that more relevant than pure population is differences in homicide rate. By the data you've given, approximately 1-2% of all homicides in Germany are by police officers (6-12 officer killings, 690 homicides in germany [2]). It's worth noting that in the USA, approximately 3% of all killings were by police officers (547/14748[2]) which seems in line with what my understanding would be -- it's worse in the USA but not ridiculously disproportionate. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforce... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...
- wavefunction 13y ago
  We (US residents) haven't posted annotated lists because this is in our face via newspapers and TV news and viral videos passed around on the Internet. http://hiphopandpolitics.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/29-black-people-have-been-killed-by-policesecurity-since-jan-2012-16-since-trayvon/ http://hiphopandpolitics.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/29-black-p... Here's one take, which is focused on black folks shot and killed over the past year. Note how many were armed.
  - hammerzeit 13y ago
    I'm american as well. When TV news and viral videos and newspapers make us feel like terrorism or kidnapping is more prevalent than it actually is, we call it sensationalism. Why is this any different? Is it because it confirms things you already believe to be true? I looked at the list you provided, and tried to correlate it against the Wikipedia list. Many of the dates etc don't match up but I tried. A number of the cases where the suspect is listed as "unarmed" don't jive with the police reports, at the very least. Others involve things that are clearly assault even if there was no gun (like assaulting someone with a car). That said, I do think in particular if you are a black male you are likely to be mistreated by police. That's not justifiable. But I still don't see real evidence that this is an epidemic or particularly pervasive.
    - wavefunction 13y ago
      Well, believe what you want to believe. I have friends who are police officers so it's not like I hate cops. I do hate the fact they close ranks and protect the bad ones though.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - winfred 13y ago
    I wrote a response here, but with the current state of government surveillance programs, I thought it was better to remove it.

by danbruc 13y ago

citizens 13y ago

Some numbers from a 2011 NYPD report (only New York City): Situations where firearms were discharged 36 - Adversarial Conflict 36 - Animal Attack 15 - Unintentional Discharge 02 - Unauthorized Use 03 - Suicide Attempt --- 124 - Total officers firing 416 - Total shots fired 003 - Total officers shot and injured by subject 001 - Total officers shot and killed by subject 019 - Total subjects shot and injured by officer 009 - Total subjects shot and killed by officer http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/nypd_annual_firearms_discharge_report_2011.pdf http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_plan...

hammerzeit 13y ago

I'm astonished by the total lack of conversation around the actual data here. Both the article itself and the discussion below are predicated on the assumption that this is a rampant problem in the USA, but not a single subthread on the actual incidence of this. I'd expect better from Hacker News. For what it's worth, Wikipedia has a complete list of people killed by US Police Officers and the police reports from them. In 2012, there were 587 people killed by police [1]. This is much, much larger than in Germany, even accounting for population difference. I would argue that more relevant than pure population is differences in homicide rate. By the data you've given, approximately 1-2% of all homicides in Germany are by police officers (6-12 officer killings, 690 homicides in germany [2]). It's worth noting that in the USA, approximately 3% of all killings were by police officers (547/14748[2]) which seems in line with what my understanding would be -- it's worse in the USA but not ridiculously disproportionate. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforce... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

wavefunction 13y ago
We (US residents) haven't posted annotated lists because this is in our face via newspapers and TV news and viral videos passed around on the Internet. http://hiphopandpolitics.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/29-black-people-have-been-killed-by-policesecurity-since-jan-2012-16-since-trayvon/ http://hiphopandpolitics.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/29-black-p... Here's one take, which is focused on black folks shot and killed over the past year. Note how many were armed.
- hammerzeit 13y ago
  I'm american as well. When TV news and viral videos and newspapers make us feel like terrorism or kidnapping is more prevalent than it actually is, we call it sensationalism. Why is this any different? Is it because it confirms things you already believe to be true? I looked at the list you provided, and tried to correlate it against the Wikipedia list. Many of the dates etc don't match up but I tried. A number of the cases where the suspect is listed as "unarmed" don't jive with the police reports, at the very least. Others involve things that are clearly assault even if there was no gun (like assaulting someone with a car). That said, I do think in particular if you are a black male you are likely to be mistreated by police. That's not justifiable. But I still don't see real evidence that this is an epidemic or particularly pervasive.
  - wavefunction 13y ago
    Well, believe what you want to believe. I have friends who are police officers so it's not like I hate cops. I do hate the fact they close ranks and protect the bad ones though.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- winfred 13y ago
  I wrote a response here, but with the current state of government surveillance programs, I thought it was better to remove it.