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Why is it only bad when the BND works with the NSA? If it is just intercepting all day to flow across Germany's borders via DE-CIX it is potentially equally pro

Why is it only bad when the BND works with the NSA? If it is just intercepting all day to flow across Germany's borders via DE-CIX it is potentially equally problematic.

kimlelly 13y ago
The problem that makes this case even more dangerous is that the US and Germany are 2 distinct and independent political entities. Well, not any longer. The US has started owning Germany. If there is no real push back now, we should just go ahead and merge officially and be done with it.
- thomasjames 13y ago
  My comment was more along the lines that only being angry when one country does it is very thinly veiled nationalism.
  - kimlelly 13y ago
    I agree, there is absolutely no room left for nationalism anymore. The situation is so f##ked up that all citizens of all concerned countries will have to band together and let our respective governments clearly know that this will not continue.
rbehrends 13y ago
Because the G10 Act contains safeguards that the BND is required to adhere to, but the NSA isn't. - The BND has to immediately delete all records except the ones that are relevant for an enumerated set of purposes and has to document this deletion. Per the parliamentary commission's reports [1], the remaining messages are generally a few hundred annually. - The BND can only share them with law enforcement for the prevention and prosecution of an enumerated list of serious crimes. Using them for other purposes it not allowed, and evidence obtained as the result of such illegally shared information is to be excluded by the courts [2]. - The BND has to notify anybody whose messages have not been deleted immediately that some of their telecommunication has been intercepted. This has to occur within 12 months, unless the G10 commission authorizes a deferral of the notification. The annual report of the parliamentary commission lists how many people were and were not notified. The BND is subject to these constraints, the NSA isn't. Furthermore, if the BND breaks the law, remedies are available; Germany does not have any recourse against NSA actions. [1] E.g.: http://dip21.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/17/127/1712773.pdf http://dip21.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/17/127/1712773.pdf [2] BGH, 2 Str 731/79. http://www.ejura-examensexpress.de/online-kurs/entsch_show_neu.php?Alp=1&dok_id=5796 http://www.ejura-examensexpress.de/online-kurs/entsch_show_n...
- thomasjames 13y ago
  FISA theoretically had restraints as well (50 U.S.C. § 1803, Pub.L. 95–511, 92 Stat. 1788, enacted October 25, 1978), but it did not stop the process from being corrupted and automated. When the capability is there, there is nothing stopping it from being abused similarly. The Western country and alleged safeguards that happen to be in charge of said apparatus is really irrelevant.
  - rbehrends 13y ago
    You are misunderstanding. The question was why the BND sharing with the NSA was worse than what the BND does on its own. What I was saying in response was not there is perfect safety against abuse, but that if the BND could share information freely with the NSA, it would render the existing safeguards largely worthless, because the NSA is not bound by the national laws of Germany.

Why is it only bad when the BND works with the NSA? If it is just intercepting all day to flow across Germany's borders via DE-CIX it is potentially equally problematic.

kimlelly 13y ago

The problem that makes this case even more dangerous is that the US and Germany are 2 distinct and independent political entities. Well, not any longer. The US has started owning Germany. If there is no real push back now, we should just go ahead and merge officially and be done with it.

thomasjames 13y ago
My comment was more along the lines that only being angry when one country does it is very thinly veiled nationalism.
- kimlelly 13y ago
  I agree, there is absolutely no room left for nationalism anymore. The situation is so f##ked up that all citizens of all concerned countries will have to band together and let our respective governments clearly know that this will not continue.

rbehrends 13y ago

Because the G10 Act contains safeguards that the BND is required to adhere to, but the NSA isn't. - The BND has to immediately delete all records except the ones that are relevant for an enumerated set of purposes and has to document this deletion. Per the parliamentary commission's reports [1], the remaining messages are generally a few hundred annually. - The BND can only share them with law enforcement for the prevention and prosecution of an enumerated list of serious crimes. Using them for other purposes it not allowed, and evidence obtained as the result of such illegally shared information is to be excluded by the courts [2]. - The BND has to notify anybody whose messages have not been deleted immediately that some of their telecommunication has been intercepted. This has to occur within 12 months, unless the G10 commission authorizes a deferral of the notification. The annual report of the parliamentary commission lists how many people were and were not notified. The BND is subject to these constraints, the NSA isn't. Furthermore, if the BND breaks the law, remedies are available; Germany does not have any recourse against NSA actions. [1] E.g.: http://dip21.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/17/127/1712773.pdf http://dip21.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/17/127/1712773.pdf [2] BGH, 2 Str 731/79. http://www.ejura-examensexpress.de/online-kurs/entsch_show_neu.php?Alp=1&dok_id=5796 http://www.ejura-examensexpress.de/online-kurs/entsch_show_n...

thomasjames 13y ago
FISA theoretically had restraints as well (50 U.S.C. § 1803, Pub.L. 95–511, 92 Stat. 1788, enacted October 25, 1978), but it did not stop the process from being corrupted and automated. When the capability is there, there is nothing stopping it from being abused similarly. The Western country and alleged safeguards that happen to be in charge of said apparatus is really irrelevant.
- rbehrends 13y ago
  You are misunderstanding. The question was why the BND sharing with the NSA was worse than what the BND does on its own. What I was saying in response was not there is perfect safety against abuse, but that if the BND could share information freely with the NSA, it would render the existing safeguards largely worthless, because the NSA is not bound by the national laws of Germany.