4 ms·

What bothers me most is that Americans can actually file these petitions and receive answers. What about Europeans (and others) who have been spied on by a fore

by andridk 13y ago

What bothers me most is that Americans can actually file these petitions and receive answers. What about Europeans (and others) who have been spied on by a foreign state? Not so long ago, this would've been considered an act of war, to spy on your allies on such a grand scale. The sad part is, that our governments or either in on it, or running their own spy programs. I really don't feel like I am living in a "free world" any more.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
JulianMorrison 13y ago
Welcome to reality. The truth is that there never has been a "free world". But the upside of that is that people who struggle to "get it back" are approaching closer now than at any previous point to creating it.
alan_cx 13y ago
The obvious question is you why you believed were living in a free world while the US was kidnapping and torturing foreigners, while threatening countries by telling them they'd be bombed back in to the stone age? I do very much agree with your points, but I don't understand why this issues is a tipping point. Since I began to understand politics, I have been as wary and skeptical of the US government as I have been impressed by the good achievements of the US. I've not believed in the idea that the US leads any sort of free world for years. Or, if you are honest, is this the first issue that you feel affects you? Were you confident that you wouldn't be rendered, bombed or drone struck? But now you can be sure the NSA have your data and that it might actually matter? If so, Im not judging you in any way. Its just I think a lot of people are possibly in that boat too, and it also might highlight why still a most people seem to dismiss this. They think it isnt or wont be a problem for them. What has been blown for me by all this is the notion of freedom of speech. While we in Europe seem to have given that up, I used to think the US hadn't.
- clicks 13y ago
  For me, this actually was the tipping point. In social groups I hung out I was usually the guy who'd defend America on numerous accounts, but in the last few weeks I've been bombarded by a load of information which I find to be truly chilling. By the way, it is interesting to note how we separate our past history from our active perceptions of the place. America's early history is not too bright -- we did some of the most batshit evil stuff you could think of: genocide of Red Indians, slavery (which to me when I really sit down and think deep about, sometimes, seems worse than just killing a person -- it's fucking killing the very dignity and respect every human being is owed, it's depriving them of any and all pleasures to life). I don't think we've made much amends for it -- the cycle of poverty still persists for a lot of African American folks, there are rather few social programs that really try to help them in meaningfully substantive ways. There are folks alive to this very day who faced system institutional racism from our government. We did some pretty evil stuff during and after the Cold war too -- someone linked this in another post yesterday: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio... -- this one truly shocked me: Researchers in the United States have performed thousands of human radiation experiments to determine the effects of atomic radiation and radioactive contamination on the human body, generally on people who were poor, sick, or powerless. It has suddenly become a lot more uncomfortable for me living in America in these few weeks after some reading (especially as I'm actually a foreigner to this land -- I escaped a different country through asylum some while back). It is apparently completely uncontroversial that United States experimented on poor people with radioactive contamination... how do I know the US won't poison me with some biological weapon as an experiment, or because I'm currently unemployed (and thus poor)?
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    Thanks for that. I understand your position a lot better now. Interesting that you chose to escape to the US. So, its not like you had negative feeling form the start, in fact, the exact opposite. The US represented not just freedom, but perhaps life for you, perhaps too your family. So, I guess it must be quite hard for you to have to re-evaluate that. For me, the jarring thing is that for years I was able to sit here in the UK claiming some sort of moral superiority and intelligent of policy/thought. I suppose that deep down I know that was BS, but in this spying think I feel we are actually worse. To be honest, the tow post 9/11 wars were a huge dent, but this is twisting the knife as it were.
buro9 13y ago
You haven't been living in a free world for a while. You just hadn't realised. I've just posted another story that I felt illustrates this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6001546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6001546 It's the story of Andrew Feldmar, of something legal in a different time and place being deemed illegal today by a different country, and the consequences. I remember reading that in 2007 and having it dawn on me that we are not living in a free world. We've been living in an age of innocence and naivety, we should've woken up a while ago, but are only slowly beginning to now.
cmdkeen 13y ago
It's just simply not true that it would be considered an act of war - quite the opposite it was known that everyone was up to it. The UK had a intelligence asset in the German finance ministry during the 90s according to Richard Tomlinson. When he was going around Europe after his falling out with the SIS (the real MI6) Germany offered him residence if he gave up the person. France was perfectly willing to give him a home in return for information. Now what there has been a long tradition of is bad things happening to those engaged in espionage. There's a reason conventions on conflict exempt spies, agents provocateurs and franc-tireurs from decent treatment. The more modern examples would be the downing of the US EP-3E on Hainan Island, the USS Pueblo, the USSR trying to sink NATO submarines in their territorial waters. You were never living in a free world if you term it to be being immune to the actions of a power if it decided to turns its attentions to you. The question is will any foreign power ever actually care about you? And if it did what would it do? Because this is where the cassus belli part comes it - your safety is pretty guaranteed. Britain has after all gone to war over a ship captain's ear historically. Italy more recently stood up the USA over the rendition of its suspects. Foreign governments spy to collect information to their own advantage, not to affect your life individually.
eli 13y ago
Anyone can file a federal FOIA request; you don't have to be a US citizen.
aclevernickname 13y ago
You're living in a Free World. Have you read the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Those are the ones you need to enforce, alongside your Intellectual Property rights ( to your likeness, voice samples, and output). Take them to the International Criminal Court. but _you_ have to sue. As a person with rights that can be prejudiced.

by andridk 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

JulianMorrison 13y ago

Welcome to reality. The truth is that there never has been a "free world". But the upside of that is that people who struggle to "get it back" are approaching closer now than at any previous point to creating it.

alan_cx 13y ago

The obvious question is you why you believed were living in a free world while the US was kidnapping and torturing foreigners, while threatening countries by telling them they'd be bombed back in to the stone age? I do very much agree with your points, but I don't understand why this issues is a tipping point. Since I began to understand politics, I have been as wary and skeptical of the US government as I have been impressed by the good achievements of the US. I've not believed in the idea that the US leads any sort of free world for years. Or, if you are honest, is this the first issue that you feel affects you? Were you confident that you wouldn't be rendered, bombed or drone struck? But now you can be sure the NSA have your data and that it might actually matter? If so, Im not judging you in any way. Its just I think a lot of people are possibly in that boat too, and it also might highlight why still a most people seem to dismiss this. They think it isnt or wont be a problem for them. What has been blown for me by all this is the notion of freedom of speech. While we in Europe seem to have given that up, I used to think the US hadn't.

clicks 13y ago
For me, this actually was the tipping point. In social groups I hung out I was usually the guy who'd defend America on numerous accounts, but in the last few weeks I've been bombarded by a load of information which I find to be truly chilling. By the way, it is interesting to note how we separate our past history from our active perceptions of the place. America's early history is not too bright -- we did some of the most batshit evil stuff you could think of: genocide of Red Indians, slavery (which to me when I really sit down and think deep about, sometimes, seems worse than just killing a person -- it's fucking killing the very dignity and respect every human being is owed, it's depriving them of any and all pleasures to life). I don't think we've made much amends for it -- the cycle of poverty still persists for a lot of African American folks, there are rather few social programs that really try to help them in meaningfully substantive ways. There are folks alive to this very day who faced system institutional racism from our government. We did some pretty evil stuff during and after the Cold war too -- someone linked this in another post yesterday: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio... -- this one truly shocked me: Researchers in the United States have performed thousands of human radiation experiments to determine the effects of atomic radiation and radioactive contamination on the human body, generally on people who were poor, sick, or powerless. It has suddenly become a lot more uncomfortable for me living in America in these few weeks after some reading (especially as I'm actually a foreigner to this land -- I escaped a different country through asylum some while back). It is apparently completely uncontroversial that United States experimented on poor people with radioactive contamination... how do I know the US won't poison me with some biological weapon as an experiment, or because I'm currently unemployed (and thus poor)?
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Thanks for that. I understand your position a lot better now. Interesting that you chose to escape to the US. So, its not like you had negative feeling form the start, in fact, the exact opposite. The US represented not just freedom, but perhaps life for you, perhaps too your family. So, I guess it must be quite hard for you to have to re-evaluate that. For me, the jarring thing is that for years I was able to sit here in the UK claiming some sort of moral superiority and intelligent of policy/thought. I suppose that deep down I know that was BS, but in this spying think I feel we are actually worse. To be honest, the tow post 9/11 wars were a huge dent, but this is twisting the knife as it were.

buro9 13y ago

You haven't been living in a free world for a while. You just hadn't realised. I've just posted another story that I felt illustrates this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6001546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6001546 It's the story of Andrew Feldmar, of something legal in a different time and place being deemed illegal today by a different country, and the consequences. I remember reading that in 2007 and having it dawn on me that we are not living in a free world. We've been living in an age of innocence and naivety, we should've woken up a while ago, but are only slowly beginning to now.

cmdkeen 13y ago

It's just simply not true that it would be considered an act of war - quite the opposite it was known that everyone was up to it. The UK had a intelligence asset in the German finance ministry during the 90s according to Richard Tomlinson. When he was going around Europe after his falling out with the SIS (the real MI6) Germany offered him residence if he gave up the person. France was perfectly willing to give him a home in return for information. Now what there has been a long tradition of is bad things happening to those engaged in espionage. There's a reason conventions on conflict exempt spies, agents provocateurs and franc-tireurs from decent treatment. The more modern examples would be the downing of the US EP-3E on Hainan Island, the USS Pueblo, the USSR trying to sink NATO submarines in their territorial waters. You were never living in a free world if you term it to be being immune to the actions of a power if it decided to turns its attentions to you. The question is will any foreign power ever actually care about you? And if it did what would it do? Because this is where the cassus belli part comes it - your safety is pretty guaranteed. Britain has after all gone to war over a ship captain's ear historically. Italy more recently stood up the USA over the rendition of its suspects. Foreign governments spy to collect information to their own advantage, not to affect your life individually.

eli 13y ago

Anyone can file a federal FOIA request; you don't have to be a US citizen.

aclevernickname 13y ago

You're living in a Free World. Have you read the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Those are the ones you need to enforce, alongside your Intellectual Property rights ( to your likeness, voice samples, and output). Take them to the International Criminal Court. but _you_ have to sue. As a person with rights that can be prejudiced.