5 ms·

So basically belief is conscious while alief is subconscious?

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
saraid216 13y ago
I don't think that captures it. If I read a story and cry for some character in it, that's not subconscious. The first example reminds me of street training: when you're switched on, you make a threat assessment of everything around you. You don't actually expect a threat, but you check for one anyways.
- Mindless2112 13y ago
  > If I read a story and cry for some character in it, that's not subconscious. Isn't it? If you know the story is fiction, you know that the character is not real and that there is no reason to cry. But yet, you cry. Either your conscious mind contradicts itself or something other than your conscious mind must be at work.
  - foobarbazqux 13y ago
    Imagination?
    - Mindless2112 13y ago
      One might argue that imagination is in the domain of the subconscious. (I probably would.)
      - foobarbazqux 13y ago
        Go ahead and argue it then... I won't be offended!
  - saraid216 13y ago
    I think this is a difficult case because the central purpose of a fictional story is to permit us to make believe that it is real. When I ask you, "What could you have done differently in that situation?" it's fictional and you're pretending that your decisions are meaningful. Is that subconscious? I don't think that is. But I'm not sure that that is an alief, either? I'm not solid enough on that definition. ETA: Apparently we disagree that the imagination is a domain of the subconscious. Eh.
    - smoyer 13y ago
      I think this is a difficult thing because one of the two words being used is completely made-up and the distinction between their definitions is extremely fuzzy. I realize that all words are made up at some point, but there are still a lot we end up calling synonyms. In the bedpan example given, I believe it's a bedpan but I have to trust that it's been sterilized. In this case, it's not alief that keeps me from drinking but rather distrust. The sad movie example is a classic example of "Suspension of Disbelief" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief). As an aside, did anyone else notice that their spell checker marked the word alief? I guess my vote is that it shouldn't be a separate word.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
ZoF 13y ago
In many cases this does seem to be true. Although....In some instances, when your conscious mind is in conflict with itself, it seems an "alief" could be based in consciousness. Using Wikipedia's given example; I would argue that when you're trying to decide whether standing on a balcony is safe the decision is very much based on conscious thought.(e.g. what height am I at, is there a railing, do I have enemies here(lol(lolnestedparenthesis)), am I inebriated) I think this term is particularly interesting when applied to issues based on morality. When you're deciding whether a woman has the right to abort her child, is the small nagging doubt considered alief? I don't mean to bring politics into this; in fact I chose this point because I thought it wouldn't be a major point of contention(compared to some others). I am just trying to say that almost every decision that we make in our lives has an alternate possibility, the merit(or perceived merit) for which is oftentimes enough for a seed of doubt to take root in our own decision on the matter. I find it curious that so many people have such strict convictions on controversial issues, whereas I personally change my position on them reasonably frequently. Perhaps this lack of a constant viewpoint on controversial issues is because I haven't fully defined myself, in which case I hope to do so soon.
- eru 13y ago
  > Perhaps this lack of a constant viewpoint on controversial issues is because I haven't fully defined myself, in which case I hope to do so soon. Don't hurry. Keeping an open mind is nothing to be ashamed of. You don't have to have an answer to everything, lest of all a fixed one.
- TheSOB88 13y ago
  I don't think most people apply conscious thought to the safety of a balcony. Actually that's the issue - people don't control their bad aliefs (like the racism mentioned) because they're not as aware of them as some of us are, and don't work on getting rid of them.
nnutter 13y ago
My thought was that belief is rational and alief is emotional.
- saraid216 13y ago
  Except that so many beliefs are not rational. I think that this would be a valid example: you believe that you're mad at someone (belief), but you nevertheless act professionally with them (alief). Except I suppose you may have a belief that you should act professionally despite being angry, so... pff. I know I don't have a good enough grasp when I can't come up with any decent examples.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

I don't think that captures it. If I read a story and cry for some character in it, that's not subconscious. The first example reminds me of street training: when you're switched on, you make a threat assessment of everything around you. You don't actually expect a threat, but you check for one anyways.

Mindless2112 13y ago
> If I read a story and cry for some character in it, that's not subconscious. Isn't it? If you know the story is fiction, you know that the character is not real and that there is no reason to cry. But yet, you cry. Either your conscious mind contradicts itself or something other than your conscious mind must be at work.
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  Imagination?
  - Mindless2112 13y ago
    One might argue that imagination is in the domain of the subconscious. (I probably would.)
    - foobarbazqux 13y ago
      Go ahead and argue it then... I won't be offended!
- saraid216 13y ago
  I think this is a difficult case because the central purpose of a fictional story is to permit us to make believe that it is real. When I ask you, "What could you have done differently in that situation?" it's fictional and you're pretending that your decisions are meaningful. Is that subconscious? I don't think that is. But I'm not sure that that is an alief, either? I'm not solid enough on that definition. ETA: Apparently we disagree that the imagination is a domain of the subconscious. Eh.
  - smoyer 13y ago
    I think this is a difficult thing because one of the two words being used is completely made-up and the distinction between their definitions is extremely fuzzy. I realize that all words are made up at some point, but there are still a lot we end up calling synonyms. In the bedpan example given, I believe it's a bedpan but I have to trust that it's been sterilized. In this case, it's not alief that keeps me from drinking but rather distrust. The sad movie example is a classic example of "Suspension of Disbelief" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief). As an aside, did anyone else notice that their spell checker marked the word alief? I guess my vote is that it shouldn't be a separate word.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

ZoF 13y ago

In many cases this does seem to be true. Although....In some instances, when your conscious mind is in conflict with itself, it seems an "alief" could be based in consciousness. Using Wikipedia's given example; I would argue that when you're trying to decide whether standing on a balcony is safe the decision is very much based on conscious thought.(e.g. what height am I at, is there a railing, do I have enemies here(lol(lolnestedparenthesis)), am I inebriated) I think this term is particularly interesting when applied to issues based on morality. When you're deciding whether a woman has the right to abort her child, is the small nagging doubt considered alief? I don't mean to bring politics into this; in fact I chose this point because I thought it wouldn't be a major point of contention(compared to some others). I am just trying to say that almost every decision that we make in our lives has an alternate possibility, the merit(or perceived merit) for which is oftentimes enough for a seed of doubt to take root in our own decision on the matter. I find it curious that so many people have such strict convictions on controversial issues, whereas I personally change my position on them reasonably frequently. Perhaps this lack of a constant viewpoint on controversial issues is because I haven't fully defined myself, in which case I hope to do so soon.

eru 13y ago
> Perhaps this lack of a constant viewpoint on controversial issues is because I haven't fully defined myself, in which case I hope to do so soon. Don't hurry. Keeping an open mind is nothing to be ashamed of. You don't have to have an answer to everything, lest of all a fixed one.
TheSOB88 13y ago
I don't think most people apply conscious thought to the safety of a balcony. Actually that's the issue - people don't control their bad aliefs (like the racism mentioned) because they're not as aware of them as some of us are, and don't work on getting rid of them.

nnutter 13y ago

My thought was that belief is rational and alief is emotional.

saraid216 13y ago
Except that so many beliefs are not rational. I think that this would be a valid example: you believe that you're mad at someone (belief), but you nevertheless act professionally with them (alief). Except I suppose you may have a belief that you should act professionally despite being angry, so... pff. I know I don't have a good enough grasp when I can't come up with any decent examples.