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This is another example of the real life ungovernability of the EU in relevant things. On the other hand they pass a lot of truly relevant laws like a new one

This is another example of the real life ungovernability of the EU in relevant things. On the other hand they pass a lot of truly relevant laws like a new one concerning the minimum distance of chickens in egg-farming plants in 2012: just in the middle of the crisis, Greece, Ireland &c. We are so happy here...

gahahaha 13y ago
I believe in the idea of a united Europe, but it is hard to see how we can get to there from here. Right now it is a bit like a Polish parliament ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_parliament_%28expression%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_parliament_%28expressio... ) in that a small country that has a particularly stupid government at the moment (or that can be strong-armed or corrupted by an empire like the US) can block sensible reform. And we all know how well Poland did when they were unable to make any decisions....
Yossarian_Lives 13y ago
I think people forget that the EU exists somewhere between Federal-style government (the US for example) and pure international organisations (The UN, etc). You can look up where its sole and shared competences lie in articles 3 and 4 of the treaty that established it, but it's not a long list and mostly concerns the operation of the common market (the free movement of goods, services and people) and a grab bag of smaller roles. The tension inherent in that set-up is between the individual powers of sovereign nations and the collective policy of the group. In this instance, there's no doubt that Sweden and the UK are helping the US in vetoing, but there's a parallel concern that the EU does not have competence to negotiate on this, and I imagine a strong desire to prevent mission creep. As to the broader question of ungovernability - I'd argue that the really interesting question is whether it is possible to maintain a firewall between economic policy and everything else, which is what arguably distinguishes the EU from other forms of weak federalism. Even before the Euro crisis there were edge cases where economic jurisdiction bled into, for example, social issues (the ECJ ended up having to effectively rule on Irish abortion law under the free movement of services). Now it's even worse. Political parties in Greece and Ireland, for instance, have been co-opted into austerity policy by having the gun of exiting the Euro held to their heads. At that point the questions of the EU's democratic deficit and the sovereignty of its smaller members becomes more pressing. At some point, I suspect, the EU membership (Euro members especially) will find itself forced to pick between actual federalism and supra-nationalism.

gahahaha 13y ago

I believe in the idea of a united Europe, but it is hard to see how we can get to there from here. Right now it is a bit like a Polish parliament ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_parliament_%28expression%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_parliament_%28expressio... ) in that a small country that has a particularly stupid government at the moment (or that can be strong-armed or corrupted by an empire like the US) can block sensible reform. And we all know how well Poland did when they were unable to make any decisions....

Yossarian_Lives 13y ago

I think people forget that the EU exists somewhere between Federal-style government (the US for example) and pure international organisations (The UN, etc). You can look up where its sole and shared competences lie in articles 3 and 4 of the treaty that established it, but it's not a long list and mostly concerns the operation of the common market (the free movement of goods, services and people) and a grab bag of smaller roles. The tension inherent in that set-up is between the individual powers of sovereign nations and the collective policy of the group. In this instance, there's no doubt that Sweden and the UK are helping the US in vetoing, but there's a parallel concern that the EU does not have competence to negotiate on this, and I imagine a strong desire to prevent mission creep. As to the broader question of ungovernability - I'd argue that the really interesting question is whether it is possible to maintain a firewall between economic policy and everything else, which is what arguably distinguishes the EU from other forms of weak federalism. Even before the Euro crisis there were edge cases where economic jurisdiction bled into, for example, social issues (the ECJ ended up having to effectively rule on Irish abortion law under the free movement of services). Now it's even worse. Political parties in Greece and Ireland, for instance, have been co-opted into austerity policy by having the gun of exiting the Euro held to their heads. At that point the questions of the EU's democratic deficit and the sovereignty of its smaller members becomes more pressing. At some point, I suspect, the EU membership (Euro members especially) will find itself forced to pick between actual federalism and supra-nationalism.