4 ms·

It's so good that at least two states have the balls to stand up to the USA and offer asylum against what is obviously a political manhunt. As a Norwegian, I'm

by marvin 13y ago

It's so good that at least two states have the balls to stand up to the USA and offer asylum against what is obviously a political manhunt. As a Norwegian, I'm ashamed that our government and bureaucracy is too scared to stand up for our moral values. If Snowden was from Somalia, we would have granted him asylum with no further discussion. It's ridiculous that a (former) "banana republic" is the only nation that dares take this issue seriously. They may have their own agenda, but facts are facts.

norswap 13y ago
Honest question, as I'm not familiar with the country: Isn't it still a "banana republic"? (In the democratic sense - as I suppose it's what you meant.)
- mvaliente2001 13y ago
  "Banana Republic" means to me a country which government is at the service of foreign corporations. Under this definition, no, neither Venezuela or Bolivia are banana republics. Is Venezuela a healthy democracy? Well, we have one of the best electoral systems in the world, so at least you can be sure that the people elected are the ones who got more votes. More than 70% of turn out in non compulsory elections. Probably you've heart differently, and that's because Venezuelan have the bad habit to vote for people not liked by western interests. Venezuela has been criticized for attacking the media too. That brings the idea of hundreds of reporters imprisoned and rampant censure. What it really means is that the current and previous president dared to criticize the media monopoly that was, among other things, accomplice in at least two attempts to overthrow the constitutional government. Venezuela isn't a paradise of institutionalism, but at least I can say that today we are freer than 20 years ago when nobody heart about Venezuela in the media. That was the time when the country was sold as an "example for democracy for all Latin America."
  - aylons 13y ago
    > Is Venezuela a healthy democracy? Well, we have one of the best electoral systems in the world, so at least you can be sure that the people elected are the ones who got more votes. The same cannot be told about the USA, either because of the indirect voting system or because of Florida.
  - JshWright 13y ago
    This is a hugely nitpicky thing, seeing as you clearly know at least two languages more or less as well as I know one, but you used 'heart' a couple times when you meant 'heard.'
jusben1369 13y ago
I find these comments naive. The political leaders of these countries derive significant political capital by whacking the US piñata to cover up for domestic issues. They already have poor/no relationship so there is no loss there. So this is just a cynical ploy to bolster or shore up domestic political support. Therefore we're cheering one sides actions for cynical political gain and criticism others who turn him down for domestic political reasons.
- Joeri 13y ago
  Actions and results matter more than words and intent. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is better than doing the wrong thing for any reason.
  - marvin 13y ago
    My point exactly.
GHFigs 13y ago
obviously a political manhunt Are you suggesting that Snowden was charged with a crime for his politics and not his actions?
- mythz 13y ago
  No, he's suggesting that he's being hunted due to political opinion, which is something the US Govt themselves protect other whistle-blowers from (provided it's not their activity that's being exposed): > Asylum may be granted to people who are already in the United States and are unable or unwilling to return their home country because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion. -- http://www.immihelp.com/gc/asylum.html http://www.immihelp.com/gc/asylum.html
- marvin 13y ago
  No. There was probably a crime involved. But Snowden is a classic example of a whistleblower, which the US Government has been harsly persecuting through the legal system. The response is completely out of proportion to the crime - in effect grounding the private plane of a foreign head of state, which would be considered an act of war if it was done to Air Force One. If this was a simple question of a crime, it would be handled through INTERPOL and the normal legal channels. It is currently handled with international diplomacy at the highest levels. This makes it seem pretty obvious that the prosecution/persecution is due to a fear that future whistleblowers will reveal more illegal activity in the US government and that this attention will cause a backlash from the public. Remember that the programs Snowden revealed are very likely illegal, at the very least violating the US Constitution. I am claiming that Edward Snowden and similar whistleblowers are political enemies of the US Government (though not necessarily the people of the United States), and that this is why they are treated so harshly. [Edit: Typo fix.]
  - ryanhuff 13y ago
    The clear difference from your typical wistleblower case is that Snoden allegedly downloaded significant classified material, threatened to release this material, and has traveled to a cointry that would be a primary benefactor of this classified information. So, Snow den created this very unusual case.
ryanhuff 13y ago
Why do you think your government is scared?

by marvin 13y ago

norswap 13y ago

Honest question, as I'm not familiar with the country: Isn't it still a "banana republic"? (In the democratic sense - as I suppose it's what you meant.)

mvaliente2001 13y ago
"Banana Republic" means to me a country which government is at the service of foreign corporations. Under this definition, no, neither Venezuela or Bolivia are banana republics. Is Venezuela a healthy democracy? Well, we have one of the best electoral systems in the world, so at least you can be sure that the people elected are the ones who got more votes. More than 70% of turn out in non compulsory elections. Probably you've heart differently, and that's because Venezuelan have the bad habit to vote for people not liked by western interests. Venezuela has been criticized for attacking the media too. That brings the idea of hundreds of reporters imprisoned and rampant censure. What it really means is that the current and previous president dared to criticize the media monopoly that was, among other things, accomplice in at least two attempts to overthrow the constitutional government. Venezuela isn't a paradise of institutionalism, but at least I can say that today we are freer than 20 years ago when nobody heart about Venezuela in the media. That was the time when the country was sold as an "example for democracy for all Latin America."
- aylons 13y ago
  > Is Venezuela a healthy democracy? Well, we have one of the best electoral systems in the world, so at least you can be sure that the people elected are the ones who got more votes. The same cannot be told about the USA, either because of the indirect voting system or because of Florida.
- JshWright 13y ago
  This is a hugely nitpicky thing, seeing as you clearly know at least two languages more or less as well as I know one, but you used 'heart' a couple times when you meant 'heard.'

jusben1369 13y ago

I find these comments naive. The political leaders of these countries derive significant political capital by whacking the US piñata to cover up for domestic issues. They already have poor/no relationship so there is no loss there. So this is just a cynical ploy to bolster or shore up domestic political support. Therefore we're cheering one sides actions for cynical political gain and criticism others who turn him down for domestic political reasons.

Joeri 13y ago
Actions and results matter more than words and intent. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is better than doing the wrong thing for any reason.
- marvin 13y ago
  My point exactly.

GHFigs 13y ago

obviously a political manhunt Are you suggesting that Snowden was charged with a crime for his politics and not his actions?

mythz 13y ago
No, he's suggesting that he's being hunted due to political opinion, which is something the US Govt themselves protect other whistle-blowers from (provided it's not their activity that's being exposed): > Asylum may be granted to people who are already in the United States and are unable or unwilling to return their home country because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion. -- http://www.immihelp.com/gc/asylum.html http://www.immihelp.com/gc/asylum.html
marvin 13y ago
No. There was probably a crime involved. But Snowden is a classic example of a whistleblower, which the US Government has been harsly persecuting through the legal system. The response is completely out of proportion to the crime - in effect grounding the private plane of a foreign head of state, which would be considered an act of war if it was done to Air Force One. If this was a simple question of a crime, it would be handled through INTERPOL and the normal legal channels. It is currently handled with international diplomacy at the highest levels. This makes it seem pretty obvious that the prosecution/persecution is due to a fear that future whistleblowers will reveal more illegal activity in the US government and that this attention will cause a backlash from the public. Remember that the programs Snowden revealed are very likely illegal, at the very least violating the US Constitution. I am claiming that Edward Snowden and similar whistleblowers are political enemies of the US Government (though not necessarily the people of the United States), and that this is why they are treated so harshly. [Edit: Typo fix.]
- ryanhuff 13y ago
  The clear difference from your typical wistleblower case is that Snoden allegedly downloaded significant classified material, threatened to release this material, and has traveled to a cointry that would be a primary benefactor of this classified information. So, Snow den created this very unusual case.

ryanhuff 13y ago

Why do you think your government is scared?