8 ms·
Venezuela, Bolivia offer asylum to U.S. intel leaker Snowden
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- speeder 13y agoHeh, as I saw some people commenting, Evo Morales incident only would push the entire South America to end giving Snowden Asylum... In fact this whole thing is being very interesting, because one guy is managing to create multiple diplomatic incidents, I would not be surprised if this end in some sort of war, or a breakup of alliances or trade zones.
- wellboy 13y agoI have a bad feeling, that's how wars are started...
- speeder 13y agoIf this become a war, who will be blamed, Snowden? US presidents with their terrible policies? Osama Bin Laden for giving incentive to the terrible policies? US presidents for training Osama Bin Laden in first place? Russia for invading Afghanistan and giving reason to train Osama Bin Laden? I think it all depends on who wins in the end. Too bad, the common people always lose.
- rapind 13y agoNo mention of the people who elect these leaders?
- jivatmanx 13y agoBin Laden is definitely the Gavrilo Princip, but I disagree with the opinion that our leaders were just innocently and emotionally reacting to 9/11, as most of Bush's cabinet consisted of hardcore, , Team B[1], neoconservative ideologues. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B
- aylons 13y agoI don't think they were innocently reacting, I think that people innocently[1] let them do it, and that this was Bin Laden's intention. [1] I stopped short of saying dumbly.
- cdooh 13y agoHistory is written by the victors
- pyre 13y agoIf the US (according to Obama) wasn't about to 'scramble the jets' to catch Snowden, then I'm not sure they are willing to start a war over a country granting him asylum.
- speeder 13y agoI don't see US starting the war, I see OTHER COUNTRIES starting the war over US actions... The entire south america is pissed off for example, and I've seen people here talking about trying to convince europeans to join us in a anti-US war, WWII style (ie: demonize the US and throw the entire world against it). And it might work, plainly because US policies since WWII mostly pissed everyone off, almost all countries have reasons to want to see US destroyed, and I am pretty sure that with enough incentive, you might end with the entire world attacking the US... Other possible scenarios are EU civil war, South America vs EU war, or Asian countries starting their own already incoming wars during this chaos, hoping to drag one western country or another to their side.
- bobo13579 13y agoAre you just being ridiculous right now? Chile, Uruguay, and Mexico for instance are strong U.S. allies. Argentina, Brazil, Columbia, and virtually every other country that hasn't given Snowden asylum would back America in the event of "World War III", which would end fairly fast.
- 9h1d9j809s 13y agoMexico is not part of South America. I agree about Chile. Uruguay is small, corrupt and almost controlled by the US. I strongly disagree about Argentina and Brazil backing America. I'm not sure if you know much everyone hates the US in South America. And for good reasons: Just look at the history of the Americas in the 70s, 80s and even 90s. And what do you even mean by World War III?
- 1337biz 13y agoI wouldn't count on Argentinia. They seem to be quite unease over the Falkland issue and if the opportunity is right still willing to take on former colonial powers.
- 9h1d9j809s 13y agoThat will not happen. Whatever the US does, it will only bring the countries of South America even closer together.
- speeder 13y agoIt is EU that might breakup, or Nato, and so on... Those that I am refering as broken alliances.
- jivatmanx 13y agoNATO at the moment is basically just "U.S. + anyone else who wants to help" With the info that NATO has been used to spy on the E.U. I definitely see incentive for a separate European military arrangement.
- 9h1d9j809s 13y agoWhich, by the way, would be incredibly important to stabilize the EU.
- shanelja 13y agoThe death of Arch-duke Franz Ferdinand was a major catalyst for the first World War, quite often these small events (when compared to the scale of a war) can be the little pushes which finally tip a country over the edge.
- pyre 13y agoSort of reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand_of_Austria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Archduke_Franz...
- bobo13579 13y agoThis would never happen. Even Venezuela is not stopping their oil exports to the U.S.
- jeltz 13y agoDidn't Bolivia just cancel a free trade agreement with the US?
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- marvin 13y agoIt's so good that at least two states have the balls to stand up to the USA and offer asylum against what is obviously a political manhunt. As a Norwegian, I'm ashamed that our government and bureaucracy is too scared to stand up for our moral values. If Snowden was from Somalia, we would have granted him asylum with no further discussion. It's ridiculous that a (former) "banana republic" is the only nation that dares take this issue seriously. They may have their own agenda, but facts are facts.
- norswap 13y agoHonest question, as I'm not familiar with the country: Isn't it still a "banana republic"? (In the democratic sense - as I suppose it's what you meant.)
- mvaliente2001 13y ago"Banana Republic" means to me a country which government is at the service of foreign corporations. Under this definition, no, neither Venezuela or Bolivia are banana republics. Is Venezuela a healthy democracy? Well, we have one of the best electoral systems in the world, so at least you can be sure that the people elected are the ones who got more votes. More than 70% of turn out in non compulsory elections. Probably you've heart differently, and that's because Venezuelan have the bad habit to vote for people not liked by western interests. Venezuela has been criticized for attacking the media too. That brings the idea of hundreds of reporters imprisoned and rampant censure. What it really means is that the current and previous president dared to criticize the media monopoly that was, among other things, accomplice in at least two attempts to overthrow the constitutional government. Venezuela isn't a paradise of institutionalism, but at least I can say that today we are freer than 20 years ago when nobody heart about Venezuela in the media. That was the time when the country was sold as an "example for democracy for all Latin America."
- aylons 13y ago> Is Venezuela a healthy democracy? Well, we have one of the best electoral systems in the world, so at least you can be sure that the people elected are the ones who got more votes. The same cannot be told about the USA, either because of the indirect voting system or because of Florida.
- salimmadjd 13y agoSnowden should be called a "public informant", not a leaker, whistleblower, etc. Typically, informants are insiders who help police, etc. "Informant" has a positive connotation. So if the government has their informants: FBI informant, police informant, etc. we the people should have a "Public Informant".
- mjn 13y agoOddly enough, the term "whistleblower" was coined specifically to avoid the perceived negative connotations of the term "informant": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower#Origin_of_term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower#Origin_of_term
- jivatmanx 13y agoInteresting, the negative connotation might have been a legacy of prohibition. It's unfortunate that people don't feel the same about the war on drugs, simply because it mostly effects minorities.
- jeltz 13y agoI don't think so. I have a negative connotation and I am not American. I would more guess it is American propaganda around the war of drugs which is trying to make informant sound like a good thing. When I hear informant I think of organizations like Stasi.
- klibertp 13y agoIt's more "collaborator" a bit east from you, "informant" has a more neutral meaning here.
- crazygringo 13y agoInteresting. While "informant" on its own has negative connotations to me (rat, disloyalty, etc.), "public informant" actually sounds nice, because it's understood to be in the public's interest. For me, Snowden's actions are beyond mere whistleblowing, and the term sounds restrictive, almost trivial to me. He hasn't revealed a few broken laws or certain instances of corruption. Instead, he's revealing to the public the kinds of fundamental information we should have had all along, in a properly functioning democracy -- and this is far more important. I like the idea of having an additional term for the likes of Snowden, or those who revealed the Pentagon Papers, and so on.
- 9h1d9j809s 13y agoI've lived in Bolivia for a year when Evo Morales was already president. I've also been to Venezuela. Assuming the CIA won't try to actually abduct him there and Morales will stay in power, Bolivia is a perfect choice in many ways. Morales is totally trustworthy. The country is very safe and less militarized than Venezuela. Policy is somewhat more moderate, basically based on social democratic ideas as they are seen in Europe. There is a history of corruption, but this is mostly in the lower layers of government and police and elections are probably not affected. Venezuela, however, can actually protect him once he is inside the country. Bolivia probably can't.
- LinaLauneBaer 13y agoVenezuela, however, can actually protect him once he is inside the country. Bolivia probably can't. Why do you think Venezuela can protect him better than Bolivia?
- g-garron 13y agoI am bolivian and live in Bolivia, this is one of the most accurate comments about my country I've read from a foreign. If you have questions about how is here, I will try to be as objective as I can. (Disclaimer: I am not into politics, I am a geek/hacker :) ).
- cdooh 13y agoThis is what happens when you push an entire (sub?)continent to feel like they must flip you back for embarassing one of their own
- 1337biz 13y agoI just wish to believe that this was not an accidental event but well thought out strategy by Wikileaks/Russia.
- bobo13579 13y agoTwo countries led by the some of the most leftist leaders != entire "(sub?)continent" Judging by those who have not granted Snowden asylum, there are many more who support the U.S. than otherwise.
- crazygringo 13y agoIt really is the most wonderful irony that the US's apparent heavy-handed actions over Morales' plane ended up biting them in the ass. As an American, I really do want to know, though -- who are the ham-fisted officials in charge of overseeing Snowden's prosecution? Who was the actual official who made the decision to tell France and Spain not to let Morales land? And who are the officials in France and Spain who decided to obey? (And are they still denying it?) I mean, regardless of what you think about Snowden, the level of American incompetence here, the way our officials are simply disrespecting other governments and peoples of the world, is really astounding. It's shameful, and I wish I knew who the bumbling officials actually are.
- michaelwww 13y agoI don't know why many assume the U.S. was behind this. France and Italy have their own spy programs and the less said the better, so blocking him could have forced Snowden back to Russia to accept Putin's terms (stop talking) or cause his capture.
- crazygringo 13y agoWell that's why I said "apparent". But it is awfully hard to believe that a country would independently take the seemingly unprecedented step of dening landing privileges to a sitting head of state, "just because" -- when Snowden has had nothing to do with either France or Spain. And it's even harder to believe that two countries both would.
- michaelwww 13y agoI had assumed the U.S. was behind it, but P.J. Crowley doesn't think so. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv0AOpfeN6k#t=428s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv0AOpfeN6k#t=428s
- DominikR 13y agoAustrian officials (the country where Morales had to land) told the press that the US ambassador in Vienna (William Eacho) informed our government that Snowden is on that plane and we should stop and search it.
- GoldfishCRM 13y agoI think on of wikileaks misstakes was to apply for asylum in 21 countries. Make it easier for the countries to say no. It is like hichhicking. Chanses of you getting picked up at a road where the drivers of the cars know that there is only one car in one hour is higher then getting picked up at a high trafic road. Same psychology.
- pivnicek 13y agoYou may be correct if getting asylum was the only purpose of the spray and pray request. To me, it seems to have filled another purpose also, to show the people of the requested countries where their governments stand. For example, the French government's come under quite heavy fire for their handling of the situation.
- ballard 13y agoSnowden is playing chess. The end-game is that he will always be looking over his shoulder, whether it's a new host government that wants to score points with Washington or a contractor collecting a bounty placed on his head. Or, anxiety of previous could get him.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]