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I live in Venezuela. It is routine here that politicians air private conversations, by telephone, or even recorded inside houses. Until a few weeks there was ev

I live in Venezuela. It is routine here that politicians air private conversations, by telephone, or even recorded inside houses. Until a few weeks there was even a TV program, sponsored by the government, that now and then aired private conversations by opposition leaders, for political benefits of course. I really don't know if Snowden knows that, but it would be really ironic if he accepted the proposal.

gasull 13y ago
I don't think Snowden has many options.
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crazygringo 13y ago
I don't understand why people are trying to hold him to some kind of saintly standard. He wanted to do what he could to expose what he believed to be wrongdoing. And now he simply wants to avoid prison if possible, like pretty much anyone else would. There's no nobility in throwing away his lifetime in an American jail -- he's already exposed the NSA's programs, and prison accomplishes nothing more. Sure, it's easy to call him a hypocrite for applying for asylum in countries "less free" than the US. But as long as "free" countries allow themselves to be pressured by the US, what choice does he have? Would you do anything different in his shoes?
- gasull 13y ago
  I also think he has the moral obligation to fight extradition. The US Government wants to make him an example to scare whistle blowers, like it's been done with Bradley Manning. If whistle-blowers are safe, we will see more of them. More whistle-blowers means less corruption and a healthier political system.
- graue 13y ago
  Well spoken. Venezuela may not be the freest nation on earth, but I'm glad there's a few places around that stand up to US government bullying. I say this as an American who will pledge allegiance to the US Constitution any day of the week, but not to the US government, especially not in its current form. I'm genuinely scared at how far my government has gone in persecuting lawful, nonviolent protesters and activists. Just look at the Aaron Swartz case, the harassment of Jacob Appelbaum at the border, or police actions during the Occupy protests (less related to hacker culture but just as important). I can no longer believe that those who stay within the law have nothing to fear from the US government. This may not be true of the Venezuelan government either, but the fact that they don't let USG boss them around means at least there are options.
- Dewie 13y ago
  You're absolutely right. He's already fought one of the battles; he's not responsible for fighting them all.
- eshvk 13y ago
  This is exactly why all this attention on him is distracting; he is human like everyone else, probably has a few skeletons in his cupboard, is probably going to make some bad moves in the future. Rendering this whole issue into one of the damn traitor stealing America's secrets will detract attention from fixing the current system.
guelo 13y ago
Originally Snowden went to Hong Kong because of their supposed freedoms but right now I think he's mainly concerned about finding a place where he won't end up in an American dungeon for the rest of his life.
- reedlaw 13y ago
  I wonder why he left Hong Kong then? Maybe he couldn't live with the writing on the wall telling him eventually the legal system there would probably hand him over.
  - pyre 13y ago
    My understanding is that Wikileaks convinced him to hopscotch Hong Kong => Russia => Cuba => Venezuela. I think that Snowden's father made some statements that he was angry with Wikileaks for this (because it ended up with Snowden stranded in Moscow).
    - reedlaw 13y ago
      That's unfortunate. It seems in retrospect he would have been better of waiting in Hong Kong until he had a promise of asylum elsewhere as well as a safe passage.
      - guelo 13y ago
        I don't think that's how it was working out. The US had started extradition proceedings and had told Hong Kong to arrest him. Hong Kong was required to do it based on the treaties with the US. They ended up giving Snowden a small window to leave by using a technical excuse but that wasn't going to last. If he had stayed in Hong Kong he'd be in jail for months and then be extradited to the US.
        DennisP 13y ago
        Hong Kong would have arrested him, but actually extraditing him would have been a process stretching out years. Releasing classified information is not an extraditable offense under the treaty, so the U.S. would have had to drum up some other charge. Snowden could have gone through several levels of appeals, each of which could have resulted in the whole thing being declared political by the courts and Snowden going free. It could be though that the HK government preferred not to be in the middle of all this, and convinced him to leave.
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fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>I really don't know if Snowden knows that, but it would be really ironic if he accepted the proposal. Snowden's not exactly in a position to be so picky, at the moment.
mbesto 13y ago
> there was even a TV program, sponsored by the government > then aired private conversations by opposition leaders The government owns the TV in Venezuela. This is a very different premise (one is about political propaganda and another is about general population privacy).
DennisP 13y ago
That's like saying "it would be ironic if Snowden ended up in a solitary confinement cell, where you don't have any privacy at all." Snowden didn't do all this to enhance his personal freedom. He knew from the start it would be degraded, one way or another. He sacrificed his own freedom for the sake of ours.
PavlovsCat 13y ago
He's an American citizen. He's not responsible for what your government does. It's also really ironic for people who aren't whistleblowers to criticize the limited options of whisteblowers.

gasull 13y ago

I don't think Snowden has many options.

deleted 13y ago

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crazygringo 13y ago

I don't understand why people are trying to hold him to some kind of saintly standard. He wanted to do what he could to expose what he believed to be wrongdoing. And now he simply wants to avoid prison if possible, like pretty much anyone else would. There's no nobility in throwing away his lifetime in an American jail -- he's already exposed the NSA's programs, and prison accomplishes nothing more. Sure, it's easy to call him a hypocrite for applying for asylum in countries "less free" than the US. But as long as "free" countries allow themselves to be pressured by the US, what choice does he have? Would you do anything different in his shoes?

gasull 13y ago
I also think he has the moral obligation to fight extradition. The US Government wants to make him an example to scare whistle blowers, like it's been done with Bradley Manning. If whistle-blowers are safe, we will see more of them. More whistle-blowers means less corruption and a healthier political system.
graue 13y ago
Well spoken. Venezuela may not be the freest nation on earth, but I'm glad there's a few places around that stand up to US government bullying. I say this as an American who will pledge allegiance to the US Constitution any day of the week, but not to the US government, especially not in its current form. I'm genuinely scared at how far my government has gone in persecuting lawful, nonviolent protesters and activists. Just look at the Aaron Swartz case, the harassment of Jacob Appelbaum at the border, or police actions during the Occupy protests (less related to hacker culture but just as important). I can no longer believe that those who stay within the law have nothing to fear from the US government. This may not be true of the Venezuelan government either, but the fact that they don't let USG boss them around means at least there are options.
Dewie 13y ago
You're absolutely right. He's already fought one of the battles; he's not responsible for fighting them all.
eshvk 13y ago
This is exactly why all this attention on him is distracting; he is human like everyone else, probably has a few skeletons in his cupboard, is probably going to make some bad moves in the future. Rendering this whole issue into one of the damn traitor stealing America's secrets will detract attention from fixing the current system.

guelo 13y ago

Originally Snowden went to Hong Kong because of their supposed freedoms but right now I think he's mainly concerned about finding a place where he won't end up in an American dungeon for the rest of his life.

reedlaw 13y ago
I wonder why he left Hong Kong then? Maybe he couldn't live with the writing on the wall telling him eventually the legal system there would probably hand him over.
- pyre 13y ago
  My understanding is that Wikileaks convinced him to hopscotch Hong Kong => Russia => Cuba => Venezuela. I think that Snowden's father made some statements that he was angry with Wikileaks for this (because it ended up with Snowden stranded in Moscow).
  - reedlaw 13y ago
    That's unfortunate. It seems in retrospect he would have been better of waiting in Hong Kong until he had a promise of asylum elsewhere as well as a safe passage.
    - guelo 13y ago
      I don't think that's how it was working out. The US had started extradition proceedings and had told Hong Kong to arrest him. Hong Kong was required to do it based on the treaties with the US. They ended up giving Snowden a small window to leave by using a technical excuse but that wasn't going to last. If he had stayed in Hong Kong he'd be in jail for months and then be extradited to the US.
      - DennisP 13y ago
        Hong Kong would have arrested him, but actually extraditing him would have been a process stretching out years. Releasing classified information is not an extraditable offense under the treaty, so the U.S. would have had to drum up some other charge. Snowden could have gone through several levels of appeals, each of which could have resulted in the whole thing being declared political by the courts and Snowden going free. It could be though that the HK government preferred not to be in the middle of all this, and convinced him to leave.

deleted 13y ago

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fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

>I really don't know if Snowden knows that, but it would be really ironic if he accepted the proposal. Snowden's not exactly in a position to be so picky, at the moment.

mbesto 13y ago

> there was even a TV program, sponsored by the government > then aired private conversations by opposition leaders The government owns the TV in Venezuela. This is a very different premise (one is about political propaganda and another is about general population privacy).

DennisP 13y ago

That's like saying "it would be ironic if Snowden ended up in a solitary confinement cell, where you don't have any privacy at all." Snowden didn't do all this to enhance his personal freedom. He knew from the start it would be degraded, one way or another. He sacrificed his own freedom for the sake of ours.

PavlovsCat 13y ago

He's an American citizen. He's not responsible for what your government does. It's also really ironic for people who aren't whistleblowers to criticize the limited options of whisteblowers.