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Venezuela offers asylum to Snowden
- pitiburi 13y agoIn the video you can see Maduro, Venezuela's President, making the official decision public. Of course, it's still to be seen if Snowden decides to go there, and how\when is he going to do it.
- pitiburi 13y agoHere the video (in spanish) of the announcement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYLpk1S7nGU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYLpk1S7nGU
- mehmehshoe 13y agoIt was very sobering translating the comments to that video. Generally the comments were "Good for us to stand up to the USA...oh shit, what did we just do?"
- nknighthb 13y agoDepends on how much money Venezuela is willing to spend on it, and how much Russia is willing to cooperate. I just plotted a path from Moscow to Venezuela that avoids non-Russian/Venezuelan airspace. It's less than 12,000km. Several modern Boeing and Airbus planes can do that non-stop.
- stfu 13y agoIn theory that could even be accomplished by the Venezuelan President's A320.
- jmspring 13y agoThe only way I see a flight being successful is to have it be a Russian airline that gets him there directly avoiding US airspace. Call me cynical, but I could see the US attempting what was done w/ Bolivia on any other smaller country...
- NonEUCitizen 13y agoCan you post this path ?
- nknighthb 13y agohttps://www.dropbox.com/sh/b3hmz55qthbg0o7/83Dri-_zQH https://www.dropbox.com/sh/b3hmz55qthbg0o7/83Dri-_zQH I doubt it's the shortest possible. I bypassed the Lesser Antilles rather than ensure I was in international airspace trying to go between them.
- caf 13y agoA great circle route from Murmansk to Caracas just touches the northern parts of Finland and Norway, and crosses Iceland. It's 9,300km long, so you should be able to modify that route to skirt those countries and stay under the 12,000km given. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=MMK-CCS&MS=wls2&DU=km http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=MMK-CCS&MS=wls2&DU=km
- NonEUCitizen 13y agoFinland and Norway might do a France/Portugal...
- kawera 13y agoThere are regular commercial flights between Moscow and Caracas.
- reaganing 13y agoThat's rich.[1] [1]: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/04/AR2009100402866.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10...
- andrewcooke 13y agowhy? the usa offers asylum to people yet has the largest fraction of the population imprisoned in the world. and guantanamo. and the death penalty. why raise the standards for other countries? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration (don't get me wrong - venezuela has serious problems. but cherry picking examples for one country is no argument at all. people in glass houses.... also, wouldn't it make the world a worst place if we required the country offering asylum to be "better" than the country persecuting someone? that seems pointless, except for internet point-scoring) [edited multiple times btw]
- reaganing 13y agoSure, I'll agree that Guantanamo's a stain on this country. And while we have entirely too many prisoners in this country, they aren't 'political prisoners'. People aren't thrown into prison for protesting the government. (Or not generally, you did have McCarthyism and such in the past)
- k-mcgrady 13y agoAnd your response to the death penalty?
- mc32 13y agoThe death penalty is a state by state issue. Some have it as an option, others have abolished it as an option.
- nknighthb 13y agoThe death penalty is not simply a state-by-state issue. Besides the existence of a federal and military death penalty, the federal court system, including the US Supreme Court, deals with Constitutional issues related to the death penalty in states constantly, and has imposed various restrictions on its usage. SCOTUS has also been on an excruciatingly slow but clear path towards total nationwide abolishment. There is very little in the US that can be treated as purely state-by-state, and so long as the 8th and 14th amendments exist, capital punishment definitely isn't one of them.
- conanbatt 13y agoI was actually fearing that Argentina would volunteer for this. I appreciate that they got the jump on us in this case. I dont think we(Argentina) should meddle on this one.
- ciroduran 13y agoI live in Venezuela. It is routine here that politicians air private conversations, by telephone, or even recorded inside houses. Until a few weeks there was even a TV program, sponsored by the government, that now and then aired private conversations by opposition leaders, for political benefits of course. I really don't know if Snowden knows that, but it would be really ironic if he accepted the proposal.
- gasull 13y agoI don't think Snowden has many options.
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- crazygringo 13y agoI don't understand why people are trying to hold him to some kind of saintly standard. He wanted to do what he could to expose what he believed to be wrongdoing. And now he simply wants to avoid prison if possible, like pretty much anyone else would. There's no nobility in throwing away his lifetime in an American jail -- he's already exposed the NSA's programs, and prison accomplishes nothing more. Sure, it's easy to call him a hypocrite for applying for asylum in countries "less free" than the US. But as long as "free" countries allow themselves to be pressured by the US, what choice does he have? Would you do anything different in his shoes?
- gasull 13y agoI also think he has the moral obligation to fight extradition. The US Government wants to make him an example to scare whistle blowers, like it's been done with Bradley Manning. If whistle-blowers are safe, we will see more of them. More whistle-blowers means less corruption and a healthier political system.
- graue 13y agoWell spoken. Venezuela may not be the freest nation on earth, but I'm glad there's a few places around that stand up to US government bullying. I say this as an American who will pledge allegiance to the US Constitution any day of the week, but not to the US government, especially not in its current form. I'm genuinely scared at how far my government has gone in persecuting lawful, nonviolent protesters and activists. Just look at the Aaron Swartz case, the harassment of Jacob Appelbaum at the border, or police actions during the Occupy protests (less related to hacker culture but just as important). I can no longer believe that those who stay within the law have nothing to fear from the US government. This may not be true of the Venezuelan government either, but the fact that they don't let USG boss them around means at least there are options.
- pwnna 13y agoWho cares? Let's go back to the NSA.
- brimtown 13y agoWould he even be able to leave Moscow without a passport?
- gasull 13y agoYes, Venezuela can issue a travel document like the one Snowden used from Ecuador to get to Moscow from Hong Kong.
- k-mcgrady 13y ago>> "like the one Snowden used from Ecuador to get to Moscow from Hong Kong" AFAIK it later became clear they hadn't issued that document and Snowden was able to travel as his passport wasn't revoked until he was already in the air on his way to Russia.
- muuck 13y agoIf he was handed travel documents by Ecuador why is he stuck on a Russian airport? I assumed he did travel under his own password wich was still valid when he left Hong Kong.
- gasull 13y agoI think Ecuador issued a document and was studying to offer asylum, then backed off under US pressure.
- tezmc 13y agoI assume Venezuela could give him a passport or some sort of temporary travel document. How they're going to actually get him to Venezuela without the plane being forced down and searched is another thing entirely.
- amirhirsch 13y agointeresting startup idea: flight search excluding flight plans and layovers in countries with extradition treaties.
- rdl 13y agoAssuming he makes it down there, who is up for visiting sometime? I've never been to Venezuela -- Angel Falls is really the only tourist thing which interests me there.
- dfc 13y agoI would not mind spending some time on the beaches and doing a little fishing. You buy my ticket and we can have a HN meetup.
- christoph 13y agoDitto.
- stfu 13y agoNow, all we have to do is charter a bus and go on a road trip. But unfortunately christoph, you are out. Only 3&4 letter nicks may board the bus ;)
- dfc 13y agoI think you missed part of my message, rdl has to charter the bus.
- rdl 13y agoMy hope was Snowden would pick a neutral or slightly decent place for asylum and exile, and it would maybe turn into the new US (i.e. "free place where people go to avoid oppression"), and maybe a startup hub for security (Berlin would be a top choice for that...) A protracted court case for extradition in Hong Kong would have been awesome for that, except for the high cost of housing. But Venezuela is really not a place I'd consider. It's not Equatorial Guinea, but isn't even Argentina.
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- iaskwhy 13y agoNicaragua is thinking about that as well: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/06/edward-snowden-venezuela-asylum http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/06/edward-snowden-v...
- clarkmoody 13y agoI'm a little shocked that even here on Hacker News, most of the top-level comments fell for the headline, rather than focusing the attention back where it belongs: the reason why Snowden needs asylum in the first place. Enough of this drama. Snowden has served his purpose in revealing the extend of the NSA shenanigans, but we really shouldn't have to read about his every move. This Reuters news release does not even mention the nature of the leaks that put Mr. Snowden in this situation. It's truly a sad state of reporting and public discourse. Edit: taking a bit of my own advice: We need to stop the NSA snooping all of our communications and restore due process for searches and seizures!
- oinksoft 13y agoPeople are commenting on the linked article. That's how it works, no?
- Goopplesoft 13y ago>It's truly a sad state of reporting and public discourse. I think your problem is that you're seeing one article as the indicator of the state of public discourse. Heres a bunch more: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=nsa https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&authuser=0... This article is a brief update on Snowden's asylum status and it conveys just that. Not every article on the matter needs to discuss the full depth of the issue.
- gasull 13y agoI agree with the sentiment, but this is an important development. If whistle-blowers get protection, we will likely see more of them. I'm OK with some news about Snowden from time to time as long as the number of stories about surveillance largely outnumber the ones about Snowden. I think HN has a healthy ratio.
- threeseed 13y agoYou serious ? It should be clear that if you have information to share you should do so quietly without making yourself the target. Where would Snowden be without the legal and financial assistance of the Wikileaks team ? Likely rotting away for the rest of his life in a US jail. Furthermore since Snowden's revelations has resulted in basically zero change to the status quo (no legislation, no change in policies, no change in diplomatic relations, no mass uprising by the public) you have to imagine he's wondering what the whole point of it was.
- GVIrish 13y agoAssuming Venezuela provides Snowden with some sort of travel document to leave Russia, the next big question is, how far is the US willing to go to apprehend him? How exactly is Snowden going to get a flight plan that allows him safe passage to Venezuela. Obama previously said 'he's not scrambling jets' to catch him, but given this week's events I don't believe him. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the US went after his flight somehow. It seems like this administration is willing to be the international villain in their attempts to catch Snowden. And maybe the CIA wouldn't dare forcibly take Snowden out of Russia or China, but who's to say they wouldn't do so to a smaller, less powerful country?
- k-mcgrady 13y ago>> "And maybe the CIA wouldn't dare forcibly take Snowden out of Russia or China, but who's to say they wouldn't do so to a smaller, less powerful country?" I think this is more to do with the publicity than the power/size of the country he is in when they do it. Extracting Snowden from another country forcefully would have huge repercussions. I think that would be the step too far that would unite world leaders in rebuking America.
- guelo 13y agoThe CIA under GW Bush did "extraordinary renditions" routinely and no government official suffered any consequence for it.
- RRRA 13y agoHere is the president's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RILfbj7m6CI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RILfbj7m6CI
- jsumrall 13y agoI'm sure he's relieved to hear he's able to go to Venezuela.
- bitops 13y agoOne thing I don't understand is why Mr. Snowden did not remain anonymous when he leaked his information? Wouldn't that have given him more options for avoiding reprisal? Or did he reveal his identity to protect himself?
- blueprint 13y agoIt would not have provided such a good example of conscience and courage to humanity if he'd remained anonymous. Is it possible to have a chance to obtain justice without having revealed himself? Is it possible for us to solve these issues if we don't consciously and assertively reject them? Report the truth about hypocrites and this is what those who are afraid of the truth will do to you. Now anyone can see that the US government is not acting in the interest of the society. Revealing himself can also give courage to those who are under the powerful illusion that the mechanisms of the US government are not able to be overcome by a living human being. That's my take, anyway.
- b6 13y agoHe said in the original interview with Greenwald that he felt that since he was breaking the law, he owed it to Americans to explain why. The way he's done it, he's the very definition of a whistleblower.
- ScottBurson 13y agoPerhaps it was clear to him -- based on the very information he has leaked -- that he had essentially no chance of hiding his tracks successfully.
- pradocchia 13y agothat's great! next step: get to venezuela.
- evolve2k 13y agoThe most concerning part of this article are the comments which to me feel like they have been paid for. Take this for example: 'Snidely70448 Snowden STOLE 3 NSA computers with top secret classified government documents in violation of his employment agreement with Booz Allen, theft alone is a basic crime and when the theft involves top secret government documents it’s in violation of the Espionage Act. Flight to avoid prosecution is also a crime in this country. These laws weren’t written yesterday just for Mr. Snowden. The U.S. is seeking Edward Snowden to answer to those charges. Plain and simple. He isn’t being singled out or vilified. You claim that NSA is violating the 4th Amendment (Congress and the Patriot Act disagree with you), yet you ignore that Snowden violated basic laws of the land.'
- mrschwabe 13y agoSpecifically, these type of comments may be originating from such programs as Operation Earnest Voice: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-oper...
- oinksoft 13y ago> These laws weren’t written yesterday just for Mr. Snowden. ... sounds eerily like something you'd hear Carney or some other spokesman say at a press briefing. It's the familiar paternalistic tone that does it.
- thrownaway2424 13y agoThat seems like a pretty sane comment. Is there something factual in it with which you disagree, or are you simply surprised at the existence of opinions other than your own?
- pavs 13y agoThere is absolutely no way for anyone to report the illegal activity of the NSA without committing any crime or breaking any laws. The law of the land is so severely in favor of NSA protecting its ass, is that the only way to reveal it is to absolutely destroy your life from a legal point of view. So to concentrate on the legality of the whistleblower's activity, instead of concentrating on the NSA's activity seems a little suspect.
- contingencies 13y agoHeh, quite stylish that Maduro mentioned the US/Israel's proxy war in Syria in the same breath. Interestingly, pre-conflict Syrian relations were discussed pointedly by Assange with Nasrallah, the head of Hezbollah, in his The World Tomorrow interview: https://assange.rt.com/nasrallah-episode-one/ https://assange.rt.com/nasrallah-episode-one/ Dig the beard.
- shell0x 13y agoMake sure to use Ghostery when visiting this website. Ghostery claims to have 18! trackers found there.
- panacea 13y agoHow can I trust that Ghostery is legit??
- brianbreslin 13y agoAssuming he were to fly commercial. What way can he get from SVO to Caracas (CCS)? Like what's a possible route whereby he isn't flying over france/italy/spain which have supposedly not allowed him to fly over their airspace? Is a jet chartered for him? Does a G4 have the range? Where does it need to stop to refuel?
- digisign 13y agoVenezuela has great beaches and lovely ladies, can't ask for much more.
- cupcake-unicorn 13y agoGoing with Iceland kind of seems like a no-brainer. He initially went to Hong Kong, which has a much lower incident of Government corruption than even the US (forgot the link, saw this mentioned in an article). I'm guessing that Venezuela is not going to score very high on that list compared to Iceland. In addition, as others have mentioned, it becomes much more political, as there is an "enemy"/animosity vibe between us and some Latin American countries, whereas there is not with Iceland. It would end up being kind of ironic and sad if he had to live in a country that ended up being just as corrupt and used this level of spying on its own citizens. Pretty confident that Iceland would not be pulling crap like that.
- DennisP 13y agoIt's not ironic. He did all this for the sake of our freedom, not his own. His will be degraded one way or another, and he knew that from the start.
- tempestn 13y agoExcept that Iceland isn't even close to offering him asylum. "The proposal to grant Snowden citizenship received limited support when it was discussed Thursday — the last day before summer recess. Six members of minority parties were in favor out of Parliament's 63 members." http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/07/05/nsa-snowden-iceland.html http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/07/05/nsa-snowden-ic...
- norswap 13y ago> "Who is the guilty one? A young man ... who denounces war plans, or the U.S. government which launches bombs and arms the terrorist Syrian opposition against the people and legitimate President Bashar al-Assad?" he asked, to applause and cheers from ranks of military officers at the parade. I had to laugh at the sheer absurdity.