8 ms·

The state of democratic control over surveillance in France

109 points by liotier 13y ago

oleganza 13y ago
Things will start shifting when people understand that "legitimate" and "illegitimate" labels are irrelevant. Government is just a privileged group of people with a monopoly on violence. It is an institute of violence. All things you don't like are direct products of the first principle: these guys can use violence to get what they need, others cannot. When you stop thinking in terms of laws and start thinking in terms of negotiation, voluntarism and coercion, you will understand where 99% of social problems are coming from. Ask yourself a question: in practical terms, what power do you as a citizen have? Government can do all sorts of shit to you, but the worse that can happen is that someone somewhere as a scapegoat will be fired, or not re-elected, or not having a bonus in the end of a year. And non-governmental person will have hard time going through labyrinths of bureaucracy where no one is ultimately responsible for anything (ultimately, "voters deserve the gov they elect", the best excuse ever). You as a person, if you misbehave, you'll get all sorts of troubles from government that no government official will ever get from you. Your bank account can be frozen. Your passport can be revoked. Your business is never fully compliant with myriads of laws and their interpretations and can be shut down any day. Your taxes are not always perfectly declared because the whole process is so complex, you can never do it "right". You can vote for some dude or gal and blame them on the internet. But that's not power at all. You cannot vote for not having a government. You only vote for someone to control parts of your life. The truth is: it does not matter what government does good to you. Only thing that matters is how conflicts are resolved. In your private life you resolve conflicts on voluntary basis. You pay for service if you like it and don't pay if you don't. You can go writing about how Facebook is not nice to you, but you can always sign out and they will not run after you. Also, Facebook does not have guns and trained professional sadists. Government "solves" conflicts by force. Only government has trained sadists with well-oiled guns. Only they can shoot people and get away without imprisonment. Only government bullshits everyone how it is important and how loving government is the same as loving society. If you disagree with the government, you have no power and a gun pointed at you. All the time. You don't (re-)negotiate with government like you do with a waiter in a restaurant, your landlord, employer, employee or a business partner. If you dislike the war on drugs, the most effective way to protest would be not to support it with your money. But you cannot. You MUST pay your taxes and you MUST use your local currency (with hidden tax called inflation). You, of course, can run away and live under another government with all the same features. If you think that government is legitimate, then you must have some theory of justice. I don't have any theory of rights or justice, I'm just pointing out the violence that government tries to hide. If you are okay with it, then please don't get upset when government spies on you or kicks you in the ass. It's just how things tend to be when you allow violence to be at the root of your ideology.
- eru 13y ago
  > Only government has trained sadists with well-oiled guns. They don't need sadist these days. Upstanding normal people do just fine.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    these days I'm pretty sure soldiers were never largely composed of particularly sadist people.
- skue 13y ago
  When you're young, it's easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to authority. But go spend any significant time in a developing nation that lacks basic infrastructure, get close to the people living there, learn about their struggles and their dreams, and then come back and tell me that the solution is to abolish government.
  - oleganza 13y ago
    It's offensive on your part to call my reaction knee-jerk. It's not me who is holding a gun. It's not me who educates your children and gives out licenses for radio, TV, internet service providers and satellites. Suppose we are in a developing nation (I'm from Russia, born in 1980-s, by the way). And you want government and I don't. I fully respect your choice, morals and ethics. I disagree with you, but I will never imagine to coerce you not to act on what you think is good. Will you give me the same respect? Will you allow me to withdraw my participation from government activity, not to pay my taxes, not to use the money you want when cooperating with other people? Or will you call the cops? If you will, would you hesitate to threaten me directly, or will you cowardly make a call and try to avoid knowing all the details of what cops do to people?
    - srin 13y ago
      What? How would you keep living in society but isolated from its government? You would continue to be using services that exist because of taxes for one thing. If you can't accept society's contract it's not really possible to live in it with no conflict. Not saying government is perfect, and I agree with you that if you don't accept the society's government you are still coerced to live in it, but you can't really just choose to not take any part in it. You accept it, leave, or try to change it.
arian33 13y ago
vsc
wittysense 13y ago
Oh man, Error Theory comes to legal systems. HLA Hart is spinning in his grave. I am absolutely not surprised. I've been whistling the Cowboy Bebop Intro since before I could spell "legal nihilism." This planet is a joke. And it's because probably .3% of You (here in this "hacker community") will know half of what I'm talking about. Snowden playing hop-scotch around Europe is "hacker news." lulz argue over the flippantness or "integrity" of headlines until you realize you've described your own simulation.
- wittysense 13y ago
  SRSLY. Previous poster said all of that -- all of language, all of that "thinking outloud" -- ultimately to stick you with the oh-you-shouldn't-be-surprised "I don't have any theory of rights or justice, I'm just pointing out the violence that government tries to hide." Of what Noam Chomsky has said time and time and time, and time, and time, and time, and time time time time motherfucking time again: "See, people with power understand exactly one thing: violence." It's like you GUYS ACTUALLY do not read, and if you do, we ALL know EXACTLY what it is you've read. We are not prepared. We "hackers" today will be the anthropologists of this dystopia; nothing more. It's like you're all hiding the belief that philosophy has not progressed since the time of Plato, and you don't want to admit it. Now I have to watch you all become your own little Socrates, from pg all the way down to the bottom of the barrel -- "hey, get a degree in philosophy sneee! it'll make you more well-rounded! sneee! haha! we're life hacking with the remnants of the failed capitalism cut us some slack -- play ball! sneee!" Call it rambling, because you CHAPS just overanalyzed a whack-a-mole game (i.e., Snowden) all over my Web. Would MOST of you PLEASE go read a modern legal philosopher?
  - oleganza 13y ago
    I have my own theory of ethics in line with what Stefan Molyneux describes in his UPB (universally preferable behaviour). But I don't wave it in the face of others because it's pointless. I'm voluntarist. Don't like/trust my theories or proofs - fine, just don't point a gun in my face. I won't judge your theories either on the same grounds.
simias 13y ago
TFA won't load here, here's what lemonde has to say about it (in french, obviously): http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/05/matignon-assure-que-les-interceptions-de-securite-sont-faites-dans-les-regles_3443078_3224.html http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/05/matignon-as...
wwhitman 13y ago
It may be easier to make a list of countries that don't do mass surveillance. Are there any?
- Svip 13y ago
  Andorra or San Marino maybe? I hear Liechtenstein doesn't have a big intelligence agency. In fact, more people are employed in American intelligence gathering than there are people living in Liechtenstein.
biot 13y ago
Ceci n'est pas un prisme.

109 points by liotier 13y ago

Things will start shifting when people understand that "legitimate" and "illegitimate" labels are irrelevant. Government is just a privileged group of people with a monopoly on violence. It is an institute of violence. All things you don't like are direct products of the first principle: these guys can use violence to get what they need, others cannot. When you stop thinking in terms of laws and start thinking in terms of negotiation, voluntarism and coercion, you will understand where 99% of social problems are coming from. Ask yourself a question: in practical terms, what power do you as a citizen have? Government can do all sorts of shit to you, but the worse that can happen is that someone somewhere as a scapegoat will be fired, or not re-elected, or not having a bonus in the end of a year. And non-governmental person will have hard time going through labyrinths of bureaucracy where no one is ultimately responsible for anything (ultimately, "voters deserve the gov they elect", the best excuse ever). You as a person, if you misbehave, you'll get all sorts of troubles from government that no government official will ever get from you. Your bank account can be frozen. Your passport can be revoked. Your business is never fully compliant with myriads of laws and their interpretations and can be shut down any day. Your taxes are not always perfectly declared because the whole process is so complex, you can never do it "right". You can vote for some dude or gal and blame them on the internet. But that's not power at all. You cannot vote for not having a government. You only vote for someone to control parts of your life. The truth is: it does not matter what government does good to you. Only thing that matters is how conflicts are resolved. In your private life you resolve conflicts on voluntary basis. You pay for service if you like it and don't pay if you don't. You can go writing about how Facebook is not nice to you, but you can always sign out and they will not run after you. Also, Facebook does not have guns and trained professional sadists. Government "solves" conflicts by force. Only government has trained sadists with well-oiled guns. Only they can shoot people and get away without imprisonment. Only government bullshits everyone how it is important and how loving government is the same as loving society. If you disagree with the government, you have no power and a gun pointed at you. All the time. You don't (re-)negotiate with government like you do with a waiter in a restaurant, your landlord, employer, employee or a business partner. If you dislike the war on drugs, the most effective way to protest would be not to support it with your money. But you cannot. You MUST pay your taxes and you MUST use your local currency (with hidden tax called inflation). You, of course, can run away and live under another government with all the same features. If you think that government is legitimate, then you must have some theory of justice. I don't have any theory of rights or justice, I'm just pointing out the violence that government tries to hide. If you are okay with it, then please don't get upset when government spies on you or kicks you in the ass. It's just how things tend to be when you allow violence to be at the root of your ideology.

eru 13y ago
> Only government has trained sadists with well-oiled guns. They don't need sadist these days. Upstanding normal people do just fine.
- icebraining 13y ago
  these days I'm pretty sure soldiers were never largely composed of particularly sadist people.
skue 13y ago
When you're young, it's easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to authority. But go spend any significant time in a developing nation that lacks basic infrastructure, get close to the people living there, learn about their struggles and their dreams, and then come back and tell me that the solution is to abolish government.
- oleganza 13y ago
  It's offensive on your part to call my reaction knee-jerk. It's not me who is holding a gun. It's not me who educates your children and gives out licenses for radio, TV, internet service providers and satellites. Suppose we are in a developing nation (I'm from Russia, born in 1980-s, by the way). And you want government and I don't. I fully respect your choice, morals and ethics. I disagree with you, but I will never imagine to coerce you not to act on what you think is good. Will you give me the same respect? Will you allow me to withdraw my participation from government activity, not to pay my taxes, not to use the money you want when cooperating with other people? Or will you call the cops? If you will, would you hesitate to threaten me directly, or will you cowardly make a call and try to avoid knowing all the details of what cops do to people?
  - srin 13y ago
    What? How would you keep living in society but isolated from its government? You would continue to be using services that exist because of taxes for one thing. If you can't accept society's contract it's not really possible to live in it with no conflict. Not saying government is perfect, and I agree with you that if you don't accept the society's government you are still coerced to live in it, but you can't really just choose to not take any part in it. You accept it, leave, or try to change it.

arian33 13y ago

vsc

wittysense 13y ago

Oh man, Error Theory comes to legal systems. HLA Hart is spinning in his grave. I am absolutely not surprised. I've been whistling the Cowboy Bebop Intro since before I could spell "legal nihilism." This planet is a joke. And it's because probably .3% of You (here in this "hacker community") will know half of what I'm talking about. Snowden playing hop-scotch around Europe is "hacker news." lulz argue over the flippantness or "integrity" of headlines until you realize you've described your own simulation.

wittysense 13y ago
SRSLY. Previous poster said all of that -- all of language, all of that "thinking outloud" -- ultimately to stick you with the oh-you-shouldn't-be-surprised "I don't have any theory of rights or justice, I'm just pointing out the violence that government tries to hide." Of what Noam Chomsky has said time and time and time, and time, and time, and time, and time time time time motherfucking time again: "See, people with power understand exactly one thing: violence." It's like you GUYS ACTUALLY do not read, and if you do, we ALL know EXACTLY what it is you've read. We are not prepared. We "hackers" today will be the anthropologists of this dystopia; nothing more. It's like you're all hiding the belief that philosophy has not progressed since the time of Plato, and you don't want to admit it. Now I have to watch you all become your own little Socrates, from pg all the way down to the bottom of the barrel -- "hey, get a degree in philosophy sneee! it'll make you more well-rounded! sneee! haha! we're life hacking with the remnants of the failed capitalism cut us some slack -- play ball! sneee!" Call it rambling, because you CHAPS just overanalyzed a whack-a-mole game (i.e., Snowden) all over my Web. Would MOST of you PLEASE go read a modern legal philosopher?
- oleganza 13y ago
  I have my own theory of ethics in line with what Stefan Molyneux describes in his UPB (universally preferable behaviour). But I don't wave it in the face of others because it's pointless. I'm voluntarist. Don't like/trust my theories or proofs - fine, just don't point a gun in my face. I won't judge your theories either on the same grounds.

simias 13y ago

TFA won't load here, here's what lemonde has to say about it (in french, obviously): http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/05/matignon-assure-que-les-interceptions-de-securite-sont-faites-dans-les-regles_3443078_3224.html http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/05/matignon-as...

wwhitman 13y ago

It may be easier to make a list of countries that don't do mass surveillance. Are there any?

Svip 13y ago
Andorra or San Marino maybe? I hear Liechtenstein doesn't have a big intelligence agency. In fact, more people are employed in American intelligence gathering than there are people living in Liechtenstein.

biot 13y ago

Ceci n'est pas un prisme.