5 ms·

Hmmm, all that will do is fuel the stupid debate we in the UK have over being in Europe at all. Personally I think the EU should haul us over the coals, not jus

by alan_cx 13y ago

Hmmm, all that will do is fuel the stupid debate we in the UK have over being in Europe at all. Personally I think the EU should haul us over the coals, not just a fine, but actual sanctions. However, I'm not sure the EU really has the balls to do that. And frankly I don't want to give that nasty UKIP bunch any fuel what so ever. An issue I see is that actually the UK is more in to this that even the US. Might not have the depth and scope, but certainly the intention, with out even the fig leaf of a constitution. American citizens have some rights to work with, we dont. When you get down to it, we are facilitating the US spying on the EU, as we seem to be some sort of gateway hub between the EU and the US, and we, for some reason I do not understand, favor the US over Europe. While much of the embarrassment is on the US, the Snowden lark puts the UK in a very exposed piggy in the middle position where we might get forced to pick sides. The US can take care of its self, but the UK could be left deservedly politically stranded. On the other hand, the EU has a lot of its own problems and Im not sure it has the motivation to pick a proper fight with the UK. All we'll probably get is some posturing to appease who ever is complaining, and normal BS will resume. I have to say, given all that, it rather amuses me that a few years ago Obama was telling the UK it should look more to Europe than the US. Heh, I suppose now we know why: We are the US agent in Europe. I have to wonder if long term the Snowden leaks are more damaging to the UK than the US. People will still deal with the US because of its economic and military power, neither of which apply to the UK.

tehwalrus 13y ago
If we're "forced to pick sides", I don't think we'll pick the US. The government might want us to, but all it takes is a list of the stuff we all hate about US foreign policy - Drones, Asymmetrical extradition (and Gary McKinnon), Guantanamo Bay, etc etc. That stuff has no mirror in the EU, all they're trying to do is get us to obey our own laws. I hope the EU has the guts to give us a short, sharp shock - or I fear your last hypothesis, about UK isolation, may be accurate.
- junto 13y ago
  The UK media is owned by people who have a vested interest in keeping the UK on the European fringes. The US-UK relationship will remain 'special'. Only a large amount of negative public opinion could change that and the UK media controls public opinion. QED... Freedom to protest and demonstrate has been steadily eroded in the UK. The police have long term spies within pressure groups such as Occupy, green issues and animal well-fare. Remember that an estimated 1 million UK citizens marched in the Stop the War anti-war protest [1]. Worldwide on Feb 15th 2003, millions more. These protests had no effect. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest#United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_prot...
  - tehwalrus 13y ago
    I want to be right, but I may be deluding myself. Hopefully the need to choose will not arise, and I won't have to be wrong.
  - xradionut 13y ago
    "These protests had no effect." It's easy to counter mass protests. Either under-report them or co-opt them. If the power structure ignores voters and protests, the only other recourses are apathy or violence, both which don't have good consequences either.
    - tankenmate 13y ago
      The third way à la Gandhi, civil disobedience; stand in the way between MPs and their local bar. If enough people refuse to work then there is only one solution left, change.
      - xradionut 13y ago
        Civil disobedience in the US is either caged in "free speech areas", co-opted by undercover police, or totally ignored/denigrated by the media. The power wielders learned their lessons in the '60s and have worked on eliminated this issue since the '70s.
lotsofcows 13y ago
"with out even the fig leaf of a constitution"? What? We have a legal system going back almost 800 years to the Magna Carta. Constitutions are for noobs.
- opminion 13y ago
  Written laws are like urls: the content might be bullshit, but they make it easier to refer to it.
  - blahedo 13y ago
    Yes and no. In the common law systems (including both UK and US) where precedent is important and case law reigns supreme, what's actually written down may not mean what the words plainly say, if their interpretation has morphed through a series of incremental decisions. Hence the US's Fourth Amendment, among other things. Laws can be in place for years without being "tested in court" because nobody finds it worth the risk; and then it turns out that when they're tested they were invalid all along. SO in some ways, having a written Constitution is worse, because you still are ultimately ruled by the centuries of caselaw and precedent, but you think the words actually mean something.
    - lotsofcows 13y ago
      And don't forget words' meanings change too. When Jefferson first used the phrase "All men are created equal" in 1776, he still kept slaves, whom, like women, didn't have the vote or right to own property.
nonsexism 13y ago
UKIP got over 25% of the vote in the last local elections - Calling them "nasty UKIP bunch" just shows how far out of touch with popular opinion you are. What we should do, is get out of Europe, and stop pretending there is a "special relationship" with the US. The reality is we're the US's lapdog who does exactly what they tell us to. FWIW I would absolutely love the EU to wade into this. It will just convince more and more people that we should leave the EU. Your last line is tosh. The UK has history.

by alan_cx 13y ago

tehwalrus 13y ago

If we're "forced to pick sides", I don't think we'll pick the US. The government might want us to, but all it takes is a list of the stuff we all hate about US foreign policy - Drones, Asymmetrical extradition (and Gary McKinnon), Guantanamo Bay, etc etc. That stuff has no mirror in the EU, all they're trying to do is get us to obey our own laws. I hope the EU has the guts to give us a short, sharp shock - or I fear your last hypothesis, about UK isolation, may be accurate.

junto 13y ago
The UK media is owned by people who have a vested interest in keeping the UK on the European fringes. The US-UK relationship will remain 'special'. Only a large amount of negative public opinion could change that and the UK media controls public opinion. QED... Freedom to protest and demonstrate has been steadily eroded in the UK. The police have long term spies within pressure groups such as Occupy, green issues and animal well-fare. Remember that an estimated 1 million UK citizens marched in the Stop the War anti-war protest [1]. Worldwide on Feb 15th 2003, millions more. These protests had no effect. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest#United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_prot...
- tehwalrus 13y ago
  I want to be right, but I may be deluding myself. Hopefully the need to choose will not arise, and I won't have to be wrong.
- xradionut 13y ago
  "These protests had no effect." It's easy to counter mass protests. Either under-report them or co-opt them. If the power structure ignores voters and protests, the only other recourses are apathy or violence, both which don't have good consequences either.
  - tankenmate 13y ago
    The third way à la Gandhi, civil disobedience; stand in the way between MPs and their local bar. If enough people refuse to work then there is only one solution left, change.
    - xradionut 13y ago
      Civil disobedience in the US is either caged in "free speech areas", co-opted by undercover police, or totally ignored/denigrated by the media. The power wielders learned their lessons in the '60s and have worked on eliminated this issue since the '70s.

lotsofcows 13y ago

"with out even the fig leaf of a constitution"? What? We have a legal system going back almost 800 years to the Magna Carta. Constitutions are for noobs.

opminion 13y ago
Written laws are like urls: the content might be bullshit, but they make it easier to refer to it.
- blahedo 13y ago
  Yes and no. In the common law systems (including both UK and US) where precedent is important and case law reigns supreme, what's actually written down may not mean what the words plainly say, if their interpretation has morphed through a series of incremental decisions. Hence the US's Fourth Amendment, among other things. Laws can be in place for years without being "tested in court" because nobody finds it worth the risk; and then it turns out that when they're tested they were invalid all along. SO in some ways, having a written Constitution is worse, because you still are ultimately ruled by the centuries of caselaw and precedent, but you think the words actually mean something.
  - lotsofcows 13y ago
    And don't forget words' meanings change too. When Jefferson first used the phrase "All men are created equal" in 1776, he still kept slaves, whom, like women, didn't have the vote or right to own property.

nonsexism 13y ago

UKIP got over 25% of the vote in the last local elections - Calling them "nasty UKIP bunch" just shows how far out of touch with popular opinion you are. What we should do, is get out of Europe, and stop pretending there is a "special relationship" with the US. The reality is we're the US's lapdog who does exactly what they tell us to. FWIW I would absolutely love the EU to wade into this. It will just convince more and more people that we should leave the EU. Your last line is tosh. The UK has history.