15 ms·

Hikikomori might be a Japanese term, but its not a Japanese phenomenon. I know dozens of my American friends who do the same thing -- hide from seemingly unpre

by jmduke 13y ago

Hikikomori might be a Japanese term, but its not a Japanese phenomenon. I know dozens of my American friends who do the same thing -- hide from seemingly unprecedented expectations and similarly daunting odds, hide from society in alcohol, in television, in dual 2560x1600 monitors, even in exercise. (My room was video games, and I'm glad I found the doorknob.)

jamesaguilar 13y ago
Hrm. There are shut-ins and hermits everywhere. It is not endemic everywhere like it is in Japan. I think, "I know an instance of X, therefore X is not a Y phenomenon," might be oversimplifying just a tad. If the rates of incidence are different, and everything I've read leads me to believe they are, that is interesting -- mainly because it adds entropy that might be useful in understanding the cause.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
tankbot 13y ago
I understand this completely, having been through much the same during a darker period of my life. Seriously dark. Flat Black. Sometimes I still can't believe I found the "doorknob", but I'm really glad I did. Also, reading the term NEET here reminded me of Eden of the East, which is a cool Anime if anyone is into that.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- intrazoo 13y ago
  Same director as some of the Ghost in the Shell stuff (stand alone complex stuff) I believe. Also, everyone should check out Denno Coil. It is a super great post-cyberpunk drama that revolves around this cyberpunk ghost story. The main tech is the story is AR stuff, it is creatively drawn, and it brings new sci-fi stuff to the table as opposed to just more terminators and teleporters.
- true_religion 13y ago
  Welcome to NHK also explores the NEET phenomenon, complete with a main character who is a complete shut-in at 22.
  - hkmurakami 13y ago
    That manga probably takes things too lightheartedly / humorously though so I personally didn't find it particularly informational or revealing. It makes up for it by being entertaining though.
smtddr 13y ago
What's going on in Japan is a bit more severe than the western world's version. It came to a point where videos like these were made - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSq0XOHxJsQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSq0XOHxJsQ Note the top comment made 4 years ago. While depression definitely exists globally, I don't think I've heard of videos like these being made for any place other than Japan. If I'm wrong though, please correct me.
- krichman 13y ago
  What is the intended effect of that video? A proxy for human interaction?
  - patio11 13y ago
    It was marketed as behavioral therapy, to help people get over psychological aversions to e.g. eye contact. This may or may not have been a smokescreen over other reasons why people would purchase that video. (Source: it was covered in general Japanese media some years ago.)
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - rangibaby 13y ago
    They are selling it as a method for getting over shyness or fear of strangers (人見知り) http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00166NB0I/ http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00166NB0I/
    - jakejake 13y ago
      It seems like an incredibly odd method for getting used to human interaction. Showing a bizarre staring video instead of actual human interaction. I don't know anything about Japanese culture but just based on whatever random bits I've picked up - it doesn't surprise me to see a video or a robot used to avoid an uncomfortable confrontation with a depressed person.
- agilebyte 13y ago
running_foo 13y ago
Hikikomori is a Japanese phenomenon. It can't be an American phenomenon because it describes people living in Japan, influenced by Japanese society. Japan and America are night and day. Also, people devoted to exercise are probably not recluses (which is what Hikikomori are), but they may be introverts. Reclusion != introversion.
nnash 13y ago
The international version of the term Hikikomori is NEET http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET
- enqk 13y ago
  NEET is japanese terminology, not international. NEET and Hikkikomori refer to two different behaviour types.
  - darrhiggs 13y ago
    "A NEET or neet is a young person who is not in education, employment, or training. The acronym NEET was first used in the United Kingdom but its use has spread to other countries including Japan, China, and South Korea." This is even mentioned in the BBC article.
  - laumars 13y ago
    It's actually a British term that has been adopted by Japan. I know this might be splitting hairs, but both the wiki link you're replying to and the parent article cite this: "an adopted British acronym meaning "not in education, employment or training"
    - hkmurakami 13y ago
      Japan has imbued the word with a meaning unto itself though. I don't think the British version of the word carries the same kind of social condescension that it does in Japan. Also Hikikkomori means that you literally don't leave your room at all (which is not the case for a NEET). If the hermit needs something, they'll often bang the floor to summon their mother (typically for food)
      - laumars 13y ago
        >Japan has imbued the word with a meaning unto itself though. I don't think the British version of the word carries the same kind of social condescension that it does in Japan. Agreed. But that doesn't change the origins of the word - it just highlights the cultural (mis)representation of the term. > Also Hikikkomori means that you literally don't leave your room at all (which is not the case for a NEET). If the hermit needs something, they'll often bang the floor to summon their mother (typically for food) To be fair, Hikikkomori and NEET aren't meant to refer to the same people anyway. It just so happens there's overlap in the context. An example in western culture could be "freeloaders" and "unemployed". The former has negative connotations (ie they live of others like leaches) where as the latter just states they don't have a job. While some who are unemployed could be classed as freeloaders, it's also fair to say that some who are unemployed are very keen to find work and support themselves. So there's overlap in the people covered by those two terms but they don't automatically refer to the same group of people.
michaelochurch 13y ago
I think what makes hikikomori unusual (and the pattern is certainly spreading beyond Japan, into Europe post-2008 as well) is that it doesn't fit the traditional shut-in pattern. Being a shut-in is nothing new, but most of those are either very old people (who are shut in for partially physical reasons) or people with severe agoraphobia (who can't leave their houses without having panic attacks) or biologically-rooted mental illnesses. What's happening now in many countries is that people without anything physically wrong with them are becoming shut-ins at very early ages-- 20s instead of 80s. I feel like corporatism is cultural alcohol (alcohol was more devastating to Native Americans than Europeans, who built up a tolerance over millennia) whose psychological effects are probably somewhat worse in East Asia. Corporatism is everywhere, but when it fails us in the U.S., we don't internalize it. Compared to people in Japan or Korea, we laugh it off, work odd jobs, take a couple night courses, and maybe move to another part of the country. We're used to the industrial-corporate economy melting down every couple of generations (1929, 1973, 2008) and we know that it can be awful, but we don't take it personally. We'd rather pull up stakes and move across the country. In East Asia, there seems to be much more shame to not finding a place in the salaryman system. Hikikomori is the response, on a large scale, to the decline of a system (world corporatism, which reached peak employment in 2008) in a world where the resulting negative impacts are internalized and personalized to a much larger degree than here.
- Apocryphon 13y ago
  The modern conceptions of the Japanese, and the German, as efficient work machines, is one born of recent economics. I hesitate to describe the cause as specifically "corporatism", but I think you're onto something there: http://www.anthonyworlando.com/2012/08/02/the-myth-of-the-lazy-poor/ http://www.anthonyworlando.com/2012/08/02/the-myth-of-the-la...
- 13b9f227ecf0 13y ago
  I don't think corporatism is the right word as it has distinct political connotations. I think you're just talking about mass industrial employment. I think the important dynamic you're hinting at is the failure of the Protestant Ethic. The Protestant Ethic brings material achievements into measure of your value as a human. This was generally warned against in Catholic and Orthodox theology.
keithpeter 13y ago
"hide... ...in dual 2560x1600 monitors" Oh, yes, computers can make people look so busy when really they spend all day what I am doing now. I'm off to the shop to get the tea
- keithpeter 13y ago
  I actually meant this seriously, it was not intended to be sarcastic.

by jmduke 13y ago

jamesaguilar 13y ago

Hrm. There are shut-ins and hermits everywhere. It is not endemic everywhere like it is in Japan. I think, "I know an instance of X, therefore X is not a Y phenomenon," might be oversimplifying just a tad. If the rates of incidence are different, and everything I've read leads me to believe they are, that is interesting -- mainly because it adds entropy that might be useful in understanding the cause.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

tankbot 13y ago

I understand this completely, having been through much the same during a darker period of my life. Seriously dark. Flat Black. Sometimes I still can't believe I found the "doorknob", but I'm really glad I did. Also, reading the term NEET here reminded me of Eden of the East, which is a cool Anime if anyone is into that.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
intrazoo 13y ago
Same director as some of the Ghost in the Shell stuff (stand alone complex stuff) I believe. Also, everyone should check out Denno Coil. It is a super great post-cyberpunk drama that revolves around this cyberpunk ghost story. The main tech is the story is AR stuff, it is creatively drawn, and it brings new sci-fi stuff to the table as opposed to just more terminators and teleporters.
true_religion 13y ago
Welcome to NHK also explores the NEET phenomenon, complete with a main character who is a complete shut-in at 22.
- hkmurakami 13y ago
  That manga probably takes things too lightheartedly / humorously though so I personally didn't find it particularly informational or revealing. It makes up for it by being entertaining though.

smtddr 13y ago

What's going on in Japan is a bit more severe than the western world's version. It came to a point where videos like these were made - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSq0XOHxJsQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSq0XOHxJsQ Note the top comment made 4 years ago. While depression definitely exists globally, I don't think I've heard of videos like these being made for any place other than Japan. If I'm wrong though, please correct me.

krichman 13y ago
What is the intended effect of that video? A proxy for human interaction?
- patio11 13y ago
  It was marketed as behavioral therapy, to help people get over psychological aversions to e.g. eye contact. This may or may not have been a smokescreen over other reasons why people would purchase that video. (Source: it was covered in general Japanese media some years ago.)
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- rangibaby 13y ago
  They are selling it as a method for getting over shyness or fear of strangers (人見知り) http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00166NB0I/ http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00166NB0I/
  - jakejake 13y ago
    It seems like an incredibly odd method for getting used to human interaction. Showing a bizarre staring video instead of actual human interaction. I don't know anything about Japanese culture but just based on whatever random bits I've picked up - it doesn't surprise me to see a video or a robot used to avoid an uncomfortable confrontation with a depressed person.
agilebyte 13y ago

running_foo 13y ago

Hikikomori is a Japanese phenomenon. It can't be an American phenomenon because it describes people living in Japan, influenced by Japanese society. Japan and America are night and day. Also, people devoted to exercise are probably not recluses (which is what Hikikomori are), but they may be introverts. Reclusion != introversion.

nnash 13y ago

The international version of the term Hikikomori is NEET http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET

enqk 13y ago
NEET is japanese terminology, not international. NEET and Hikkikomori refer to two different behaviour types.
- darrhiggs 13y ago
  "A NEET or neet is a young person who is not in education, employment, or training. The acronym NEET was first used in the United Kingdom but its use has spread to other countries including Japan, China, and South Korea." This is even mentioned in the BBC article.
- laumars 13y ago
  It's actually a British term that has been adopted by Japan. I know this might be splitting hairs, but both the wiki link you're replying to and the parent article cite this: "an adopted British acronym meaning "not in education, employment or training"
  - hkmurakami 13y ago
    Japan has imbued the word with a meaning unto itself though. I don't think the British version of the word carries the same kind of social condescension that it does in Japan. Also Hikikkomori means that you literally don't leave your room at all (which is not the case for a NEET). If the hermit needs something, they'll often bang the floor to summon their mother (typically for food)
    - laumars 13y ago
      >Japan has imbued the word with a meaning unto itself though. I don't think the British version of the word carries the same kind of social condescension that it does in Japan. Agreed. But that doesn't change the origins of the word - it just highlights the cultural (mis)representation of the term. > Also Hikikkomori means that you literally don't leave your room at all (which is not the case for a NEET). If the hermit needs something, they'll often bang the floor to summon their mother (typically for food) To be fair, Hikikkomori and NEET aren't meant to refer to the same people anyway. It just so happens there's overlap in the context. An example in western culture could be "freeloaders" and "unemployed". The former has negative connotations (ie they live of others like leaches) where as the latter just states they don't have a job. While some who are unemployed could be classed as freeloaders, it's also fair to say that some who are unemployed are very keen to find work and support themselves. So there's overlap in the people covered by those two terms but they don't automatically refer to the same group of people.

michaelochurch 13y ago

I think what makes hikikomori unusual (and the pattern is certainly spreading beyond Japan, into Europe post-2008 as well) is that it doesn't fit the traditional shut-in pattern. Being a shut-in is nothing new, but most of those are either very old people (who are shut in for partially physical reasons) or people with severe agoraphobia (who can't leave their houses without having panic attacks) or biologically-rooted mental illnesses. What's happening now in many countries is that people without anything physically wrong with them are becoming shut-ins at very early ages-- 20s instead of 80s. I feel like corporatism is cultural alcohol (alcohol was more devastating to Native Americans than Europeans, who built up a tolerance over millennia) whose psychological effects are probably somewhat worse in East Asia. Corporatism is everywhere, but when it fails us in the U.S., we don't internalize it. Compared to people in Japan or Korea, we laugh it off, work odd jobs, take a couple night courses, and maybe move to another part of the country. We're used to the industrial-corporate economy melting down every couple of generations (1929, 1973, 2008) and we know that it can be awful, but we don't take it personally. We'd rather pull up stakes and move across the country. In East Asia, there seems to be much more shame to not finding a place in the salaryman system. Hikikomori is the response, on a large scale, to the decline of a system (world corporatism, which reached peak employment in 2008) in a world where the resulting negative impacts are internalized and personalized to a much larger degree than here.

Apocryphon 13y ago
The modern conceptions of the Japanese, and the German, as efficient work machines, is one born of recent economics. I hesitate to describe the cause as specifically "corporatism", but I think you're onto something there: http://www.anthonyworlando.com/2012/08/02/the-myth-of-the-lazy-poor/ http://www.anthonyworlando.com/2012/08/02/the-myth-of-the-la...
13b9f227ecf0 13y ago
I don't think corporatism is the right word as it has distinct political connotations. I think you're just talking about mass industrial employment. I think the important dynamic you're hinting at is the failure of the Protestant Ethic. The Protestant Ethic brings material achievements into measure of your value as a human. This was generally warned against in Catholic and Orthodox theology.

keithpeter 13y ago

"hide... ...in dual 2560x1600 monitors" Oh, yes, computers can make people look so busy when really they spend all day what I am doing now. I'm off to the shop to get the tea

keithpeter 13y ago
I actually meant this seriously, it was not intended to be sarcastic.