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I really don't like it but I can't shake off my smug European sense of being weirded out when I read about how atheists are seemingly treated in America. Is it

by lenni 13y ago

I really don't like it but I can't shake off my smug European sense of being weirded out when I read about how atheists are seemingly treated in America. Is it really as bad as it's made out in this article or on Reddit? Do your neighbours really get into your hair because you don't have a faith?

GnwbZHiU 13y ago
30 years ago maybe. These days, America is much more atheist-friendly than religious-friendly.
nnash 13y ago
From my experience as an agnostic I've been heckled more by my own family than anyone else. My world view is basically opposite of theirs and I've learned to just not open my mouth when they begin talking about it (politics, religion etc). It makes for very uncomfortable family gatherings for me :/
WayneDB 13y ago
No they don't. At least not anywhere that I've lived for an extended period of time (NJ, NY, NC, PA).
- sixbrx 13y ago
  I grew up in Arkansas as an atheist (I guess that's "Bible Belt" though I find the term insulting), and really I don't have any problems that would cause me to seek out other atheists. I had minor problems as a teenager but that's probably because I had the view that christians cause all the world's problems, such as my inability to attract enough females. Realizing that was far from the truth was a big part of growing up I think.
icegreentea 13y ago
This article doesn't actually make it to be all that hard. I mean, let's be reasonable. You are part of a community that strongly identifies with a set of beliefs and activities. You become disillusioned with said set of beliefs and activities. How are you going to stay part of that community? Doesn't matter if its NASCAR, hacking around in python, DIY bioengineering, whatever. What happens is that there are situations where entire physical communities (in the sense of the set of people you will likely run into) also form a single actual community (in the sense of some sort of in-group), which is really unfortunate. I mean, no matter how welcoming and polite that ingroup is, your going to feel left out and somewhat alienated.
- cpursley 13y ago
  Exactly. It's hard enough to be a male and not a sports fan in America. "Ok, so you're an atheist. Wait, you're not a {local team here} fan!!!"
  - arethuza 13y ago
    I presume you don't have a strong connection between particular football teams and religion and therefore particular community allegiances? Rangers/Celtic, Hearts/Hibs etc.
    - cpursley 13y ago
      Well, I don't mean both at the same time. What I'm saying is, it's more difficult socially and in terms of community if you are not a sports fan (at all, of any type) than it is to be an atheist. Most people are smart enough to avoid religion and politics so that leaves sports for the small talk.
- pekk 13y ago
  It really goes beyond this, because taking on some labels gets you labeled as a walking blasphemy, an immoral person who subscribes to a philosophy of mass murder. Atheism is understood as opposition to God (Satanism) in much of rural America. One area where Western Europeans really can be smug with justification.
odiroot 13y ago
Visit Poland (or other ex-Warsaw pact countries, excluding Czech Republic). You're going to change your mind, fast.
- arethuza 13y ago
  Parts of the UK (e.g. Northern Scotland, Western Isles) could be pretty strict about some things - particularly observing the Sabbath. Even though my parents were "heathens" we didn't hang up washing outside on a Sunday or go out on bicycles - for fear of upsetting the neighbours. If you've seen Lars von Trier's excellent Breaking the Waves you will get the idea. [NB I don't think things are nearly as strict as they used to be.]
- bliker 13y ago
  Well, I am from Slovakia. I was never met with open criticism or any kind of aggression towards me for not being christian. I think majority of Europeans are only Sunday Christians. The level of engagement I have seen in US is far beyond this.
bliker 13y ago
I was in US only 6 months and it was in Mississippi. But my experience was very similar. Even more radical I could say.
- cpursley 13y ago
  I'm sorry. Mississippi makes Alabama look like NYC.
- pekk 13y ago
  That is culture shock for you
akmiller 13y ago
I've never really experienced any type of heckling, however, where I live (Missouri) most people just assume you are a Christian of some form. I do feel like if my employer knew I was an atheist I'd see some discrimination at work. Not to mention that, for the most part, you won't get elected to public office if you are a atheist. In fact in Texas an atheist can't run for public office.
- brazzy 13y ago
  > In fact in Texas an atheist can't run for public office. Can you cite a source for that? Because it sounds like one HUGE violation of the 1st amendement.
  - andyjohnson0 13y ago
    Texas Constitution. Article 1, Section 4: "Sec. 4. RELIGIOUS TESTS. No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being." [1] This doesn't actually say that an atheist can't hold office, but a non-believer can be excluded from office. There are some particularly egregious examples of public-office tests listed in [2]; in particular Tennessee. [1] http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/CN/htm/CN.1.htm http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/CN/htm/CN.1.htm [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists...
jasonlotito 13y ago
> Is it really as bad as it's made out in this article or on Reddit? It probably depends on where you live. Here in PA, it's been a non-issue for me. But then, be careful. America is much larger than Europe, and while we are all part of the same country, we aren't the same people. There are big difference among the different parts of the country, and making them out to be all the same would be like me using a single country and extrapolating that out to all countries in Europe. Even still, I have religious friends, and non-religious friends. It's never come up, and never been an issue.
- arethuza 13y ago
  "But then, be careful. America is much larger than Europe" Europe (the continent) actually has a larger area (10,180,000 km² > 9,826,675 km²) and a much larger population (739.2 million > 313.9 million ) than the United States (the country). I presume you mean the EU (which still has a much larger population) or maybe Western Europe? Or maybe North America (the continent)?
  - andyjohnson0 13y ago
    I read "larger" as meaning "more diverse". Not sure I agree though.
    - VBprogrammer 13y ago
      I think you'd have to be slightly delusional to feel that the USA is more diverse than the whole of the EU.
      - arethuza 13y ago
        I think that's a bit harsh. In the case of the USA my impression is that the main source of cultural diversity is from immigrant communities whereas in Europe the main diversity is between long established communities - often at a level well below that of the current nation state (particularly noticeable in places like the UK and the other larger European states). Personally, I think that Europe does have a lot more cultural diversity than the United States - but I can see that the point is arguable and that it's hardly a case of being "delusional" to argue the opposing point.
tzs 13y ago
> I really don't like it but I can't shake off my smug European sense of being weirded out when I read about how atheists are seemingly treated in America. That's OK, 'cause we Americans can be smug right back at you over the way Gypsies are treated in Europe. Just as we treat atheists the way Europe did a century ago, Europe treats the Gypsies the way America treated black people a century ago. Actually, Europe doesn't seem all that friendly to blacks yet, either, at least judging by what soccer fans have been chanting at opposing team black players. So...don't get too smug over there. :-)

by lenni 13y ago

GnwbZHiU 13y ago

30 years ago maybe. These days, America is much more atheist-friendly than religious-friendly.

nnash 13y ago

From my experience as an agnostic I've been heckled more by my own family than anyone else. My world view is basically opposite of theirs and I've learned to just not open my mouth when they begin talking about it (politics, religion etc). It makes for very uncomfortable family gatherings for me :/

WayneDB 13y ago

No they don't. At least not anywhere that I've lived for an extended period of time (NJ, NY, NC, PA).

sixbrx 13y ago
I grew up in Arkansas as an atheist (I guess that's "Bible Belt" though I find the term insulting), and really I don't have any problems that would cause me to seek out other atheists. I had minor problems as a teenager but that's probably because I had the view that christians cause all the world's problems, such as my inability to attract enough females. Realizing that was far from the truth was a big part of growing up I think.

icegreentea 13y ago

This article doesn't actually make it to be all that hard. I mean, let's be reasonable. You are part of a community that strongly identifies with a set of beliefs and activities. You become disillusioned with said set of beliefs and activities. How are you going to stay part of that community? Doesn't matter if its NASCAR, hacking around in python, DIY bioengineering, whatever. What happens is that there are situations where entire physical communities (in the sense of the set of people you will likely run into) also form a single actual community (in the sense of some sort of in-group), which is really unfortunate. I mean, no matter how welcoming and polite that ingroup is, your going to feel left out and somewhat alienated.

cpursley 13y ago
Exactly. It's hard enough to be a male and not a sports fan in America. "Ok, so you're an atheist. Wait, you're not a {local team here} fan!!!"
- arethuza 13y ago
  I presume you don't have a strong connection between particular football teams and religion and therefore particular community allegiances? Rangers/Celtic, Hearts/Hibs etc.
  - cpursley 13y ago
    Well, I don't mean both at the same time. What I'm saying is, it's more difficult socially and in terms of community if you are not a sports fan (at all, of any type) than it is to be an atheist. Most people are smart enough to avoid religion and politics so that leaves sports for the small talk.
pekk 13y ago
It really goes beyond this, because taking on some labels gets you labeled as a walking blasphemy, an immoral person who subscribes to a philosophy of mass murder. Atheism is understood as opposition to God (Satanism) in much of rural America. One area where Western Europeans really can be smug with justification.

odiroot 13y ago

Visit Poland (or other ex-Warsaw pact countries, excluding Czech Republic). You're going to change your mind, fast.

arethuza 13y ago
Parts of the UK (e.g. Northern Scotland, Western Isles) could be pretty strict about some things - particularly observing the Sabbath. Even though my parents were "heathens" we didn't hang up washing outside on a Sunday or go out on bicycles - for fear of upsetting the neighbours. If you've seen Lars von Trier's excellent Breaking the Waves you will get the idea. [NB I don't think things are nearly as strict as they used to be.]
bliker 13y ago
Well, I am from Slovakia. I was never met with open criticism or any kind of aggression towards me for not being christian. I think majority of Europeans are only Sunday Christians. The level of engagement I have seen in US is far beyond this.

bliker 13y ago

I was in US only 6 months and it was in Mississippi. But my experience was very similar. Even more radical I could say.

cpursley 13y ago
I'm sorry. Mississippi makes Alabama look like NYC.
pekk 13y ago
That is culture shock for you

akmiller 13y ago

I've never really experienced any type of heckling, however, where I live (Missouri) most people just assume you are a Christian of some form. I do feel like if my employer knew I was an atheist I'd see some discrimination at work. Not to mention that, for the most part, you won't get elected to public office if you are a atheist. In fact in Texas an atheist can't run for public office.

brazzy 13y ago
> In fact in Texas an atheist can't run for public office. Can you cite a source for that? Because it sounds like one HUGE violation of the 1st amendement.
- andyjohnson0 13y ago
  Texas Constitution. Article 1, Section 4: "Sec. 4. RELIGIOUS TESTS. No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being." [1] This doesn't actually say that an atheist can't hold office, but a non-believer can be excluded from office. There are some particularly egregious examples of public-office tests listed in [2]; in particular Tennessee. [1] http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/CN/htm/CN.1.htm http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/CN/htm/CN.1.htm [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists...

jasonlotito 13y ago

> Is it really as bad as it's made out in this article or on Reddit? It probably depends on where you live. Here in PA, it's been a non-issue for me. But then, be careful. America is much larger than Europe, and while we are all part of the same country, we aren't the same people. There are big difference among the different parts of the country, and making them out to be all the same would be like me using a single country and extrapolating that out to all countries in Europe. Even still, I have religious friends, and non-religious friends. It's never come up, and never been an issue.

arethuza 13y ago
"But then, be careful. America is much larger than Europe" Europe (the continent) actually has a larger area (10,180,000 km² > 9,826,675 km²) and a much larger population (739.2 million > 313.9 million ) than the United States (the country). I presume you mean the EU (which still has a much larger population) or maybe Western Europe? Or maybe North America (the continent)?
- andyjohnson0 13y ago
  I read "larger" as meaning "more diverse". Not sure I agree though.
  - VBprogrammer 13y ago
    I think you'd have to be slightly delusional to feel that the USA is more diverse than the whole of the EU.
    - arethuza 13y ago
      I think that's a bit harsh. In the case of the USA my impression is that the main source of cultural diversity is from immigrant communities whereas in Europe the main diversity is between long established communities - often at a level well below that of the current nation state (particularly noticeable in places like the UK and the other larger European states). Personally, I think that Europe does have a lot more cultural diversity than the United States - but I can see that the point is arguable and that it's hardly a case of being "delusional" to argue the opposing point.

tzs 13y ago

> I really don't like it but I can't shake off my smug European sense of being weirded out when I read about how atheists are seemingly treated in America. That's OK, 'cause we Americans can be smug right back at you over the way Gypsies are treated in Europe. Just as we treat atheists the way Europe did a century ago, Europe treats the Gypsies the way America treated black people a century ago. Actually, Europe doesn't seem all that friendly to blacks yet, either, at least judging by what soccer fans have been chanting at opposing team black players. So...don't get too smug over there. :-)