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People relied on crypto.cat, some probably with their lives. Who gives a crap about hurt feelings of the author who failed at crypto for so long, while adverti

by rorrr2 13y ago

People relied on crypto.cat, some probably with their lives. Who gives a crap about hurt feelings of the author who failed at crypto for so long, while advertising it as secure?

pfortuny 13y ago
It is not "hurt feelings", it is "the tone of the environment." Really, education and politeness have much more to do with "building a strong society" (and by society I mean "developers' environment") than "not hurting the feelings of an individual." Think big, not small. Think long-term, not short. Think global, not local. If you do these, then you will end up also thinking small, short and local. (Edit typos etc) Reedit: The first comment by DanBC is what I deem "polite criticism". One does not need to mince words but one does not need to insult either.
- throwaway2048 13y ago
  Sorry, but people that continually ignore polite advice to the detriment of the community badly need naming and shaming like this. People's lives are literally on the line.
  - raganwald 13y ago
    Way to miss the point. This isn't about Nadim. Ask yourself this question: If there's an intelligent person with expert skills to contribute to either of two communities, and one of them is full of naming and shaming but the other iusn;t, where will they go?
    - Nursie 13y ago
      If they're into crypto, hopefully the one with a robust attitude to handling security flaws, rather than the one where pointing them out is considered bad form.
- rorrr2 13y ago
  Why should we be polite to a person who endangered people who relied on his expertise? He had one task (that he chose), that task was extremely sensitive and had to be implemented correctly. He failed. Shaming and ridicule is the least he deserves.
  - pfortuny 13y ago
    Well I hope you shall never make a mistake. Search for "Patriot missile bug" and think about it. Just a suggestion.
    - rorrr2 13y ago
      1) If I ever make a mistake of that magnitude, I will accept any level of criticism, in any way shape or form. 2) I will never implement a crypto system that lives depend on without fully understanding it.
      - pfortuny 13y ago
        Honestly, it does not matter whether YOU accept that level of criticism. It is not about the perpetrator, it is about the environment. I am not complaining for myself, really. And, on the other hand, I would suggest not being so sure about the future.
        DanBC 13y ago
        I agree that criticism should be constructive, and that it never needs to be toxic. I agree that "we" should be working to reduce toxic environments. When you release a crypto product you will receive a lot of criticism. You need to be humble with the release, and humble with the acceptance of criticism, because the people giving that criticism tend to be very good at what they do and thus their time and knowledge is valuable. So part of the problem is a toxic environment, but part of the problem is certainly the unhelpful attitude of people working on cryptocat. I guess there's something in here about defensiveness and accepting criticism and cognitive dissonance.
- beshrkayali 13y ago
  Although I agree with that fact the the article was a bit harsh, I have to say that it's not really about "thinking big" or "small", it's about the result of such mistakes. If a pizza delivery order got messed because of a bug in the web service, the result would be that you won't have any pizza today for example (which is acceptable). But when it comes to software that affects lives, and when it's being advertised in the media (of course with the patronage of the author) as a secure solution, then it's a big problem that could really affect many people. You can't think long or short term in these issues, you have to take the immediate consequences into consideration, you have to shock the users into knowing how bad the problems are. I'm sure the intention for such harshness is not directed towards the author, but in fact towards the community of users relying on this piece of software. Imagine learning that TOR is insecure or compromised for example, that would mean a very hideous end for many activists around the world. I really mean hideous as being persecuted, captured, tortured, and eventually killed. That is something that should be stopped in any way without giving any second thoughts to feelings, or "strong developer environment". From a technical point of view, nothing could be said about the author, because this is how software is, weather it's proprietary or open source. As many have said before me, the smallest bug could render an amazing software pointless. Just chiming in with something that I feel strongly about.
  - pfortuny 13y ago
    You are right in what you say. Absolutely. I am just speaking about the "tone". Long term/short term tone-wise. If you go to the Perl community you will understand what I am talking about. Not just TIMTOWTDI, not that. Just "This is wrong and does not work as intended". Instead of "Fuck it, man, this sucks completely and is crap".
    - beshrkayali 13y ago
      Steve only said: "CryptoCat doesn't work as expected". "The creators are incompetent of taking on such task" (which is his opinion that he's entitled to have), and "Here's why it doesn't work".

by rorrr2 13y ago

People relied on crypto.cat, some probably with their lives. Who gives a crap about hurt feelings of the author who failed at crypto for so long, while advertising it as secure?

pfortuny 13y ago

It is not "hurt feelings", it is "the tone of the environment." Really, education and politeness have much more to do with "building a strong society" (and by society I mean "developers' environment") than "not hurting the feelings of an individual." Think big, not small. Think long-term, not short. Think global, not local. If you do these, then you will end up also thinking small, short and local. (Edit typos etc) Reedit: The first comment by DanBC is what I deem "polite criticism". One does not need to mince words but one does not need to insult either.

throwaway2048 13y ago
Sorry, but people that continually ignore polite advice to the detriment of the community badly need naming and shaming like this. People's lives are literally on the line.
- raganwald 13y ago
  Way to miss the point. This isn't about Nadim. Ask yourself this question: If there's an intelligent person with expert skills to contribute to either of two communities, and one of them is full of naming and shaming but the other iusn;t, where will they go?
  - Nursie 13y ago
    If they're into crypto, hopefully the one with a robust attitude to handling security flaws, rather than the one where pointing them out is considered bad form.
rorrr2 13y ago
Why should we be polite to a person who endangered people who relied on his expertise? He had one task (that he chose), that task was extremely sensitive and had to be implemented correctly. He failed. Shaming and ridicule is the least he deserves.
- pfortuny 13y ago
  Well I hope you shall never make a mistake. Search for "Patriot missile bug" and think about it. Just a suggestion.
  - rorrr2 13y ago
    1) If I ever make a mistake of that magnitude, I will accept any level of criticism, in any way shape or form. 2) I will never implement a crypto system that lives depend on without fully understanding it.
    - pfortuny 13y ago
      Honestly, it does not matter whether YOU accept that level of criticism. It is not about the perpetrator, it is about the environment. I am not complaining for myself, really. And, on the other hand, I would suggest not being so sure about the future.
      - DanBC 13y ago
        I agree that criticism should be constructive, and that it never needs to be toxic. I agree that "we" should be working to reduce toxic environments. When you release a crypto product you will receive a lot of criticism. You need to be humble with the release, and humble with the acceptance of criticism, because the people giving that criticism tend to be very good at what they do and thus their time and knowledge is valuable. So part of the problem is a toxic environment, but part of the problem is certainly the unhelpful attitude of people working on cryptocat. I guess there's something in here about defensiveness and accepting criticism and cognitive dissonance.
beshrkayali 13y ago
Although I agree with that fact the the article was a bit harsh, I have to say that it's not really about "thinking big" or "small", it's about the result of such mistakes. If a pizza delivery order got messed because of a bug in the web service, the result would be that you won't have any pizza today for example (which is acceptable). But when it comes to software that affects lives, and when it's being advertised in the media (of course with the patronage of the author) as a secure solution, then it's a big problem that could really affect many people. You can't think long or short term in these issues, you have to take the immediate consequences into consideration, you have to shock the users into knowing how bad the problems are. I'm sure the intention for such harshness is not directed towards the author, but in fact towards the community of users relying on this piece of software. Imagine learning that TOR is insecure or compromised for example, that would mean a very hideous end for many activists around the world. I really mean hideous as being persecuted, captured, tortured, and eventually killed. That is something that should be stopped in any way without giving any second thoughts to feelings, or "strong developer environment". From a technical point of view, nothing could be said about the author, because this is how software is, weather it's proprietary or open source. As many have said before me, the smallest bug could render an amazing software pointless. Just chiming in with something that I feel strongly about.
- pfortuny 13y ago
  You are right in what you say. Absolutely. I am just speaking about the "tone". Long term/short term tone-wise. If you go to the Perl community you will understand what I am talking about. Not just TIMTOWTDI, not that. Just "This is wrong and does not work as intended". Instead of "Fuck it, man, this sucks completely and is crap".
  - beshrkayali 13y ago
    Steve only said: "CryptoCat doesn't work as expected". "The creators are incompetent of taking on such task" (which is his opinion that he's entitled to have), and "Here's why it doesn't work".