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You do not have to sell your soul to feed your family. Trust me, they can get another job. The reality is the pay is good and these people do not care what thei

by electic 13y ago

You do not have to sell your soul to feed your family. Trust me, they can get another job. The reality is the pay is good and these people do not care what their organization does.

Kylekramer 13y ago
You saying "trust me" doesn't feed their family. Looking at my Facebook page, there are dozen of people I personally know desperate for jobs. Even their belief that working for the NSA was selling their soul was taken for granted, most of them would take it.
- griffordson 13y ago
  Anyone you know from FB who is unemployed probably isn't eligible to work at the NSA. We aren't talking about WPA jobs after all. I understand your point, lots of people can't be choosy about where they work. But those aren't the people we're talking about here. We're talking about people who currently work at the NSA and I assure you they have skills that are highly sought after in many industries. They definitely don't need their NSA jobs to feed their families.
  - mjn 13y ago
    I don't get the impression that there are a lot of jobs out there for pure mathematicians. The conventional wisdom, at least, is that you have three options: tenured professor, NSA, or abandon pure math entirely. And it's not too easy to get a tenured professorship.
    - hkmurakami 13y ago
      do some branches of finance use pure math? (or is it only applied math)
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Here's an idea: don't make babies before you found an ethical way to provide for them? You make it seem like people just wake up one day with families and a job at the NSA as the only option. As general rule: if you could say it in defense of being a member of the Waffen-SS, it's probably not a very solid argument. Everybody has their sob story, but long after those people are dead others will STILL have to deal with the messy, fucked up and stupid structures cowards erected. And with that in mind, my sympathy kinda fades. And that your friends would do it is no argument either, people always seem to have this idea that they themselves (or their friends) are special and ought to not be criticized. Everybody is so fucking magical when it's about them. Contrast this with how we talk and think about people of the past, of other countries or other social groups. Also there are the people blown up by drones, or the ones threatened with it http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/will-nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-be-droned http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/will-nsa-whistleblower-edwa... (because who needs trials when you have "intelligence") Those don't even get to the point of worry about job security, and they don't seem to even figure into any of this.
  - rmrfrmrf 13y ago
    1. Omniscience is a commodity now? Please let me know where I can find out all of the information (past, present, and future) about every company I may want to work for -- maybe this database you have access to also has information on what my salary will be a few years from now so I can plan out exactly how many children I want to have. This knowledge base you have access to also lets me know if and when I will lose any job I'm holding at any point in the future, right? I wouldn't want something, uh, unexpected, to occur after having children. Those pesky things -- you just can't seem to take them back! 2. The "ethics" of the NSA can be changed by Congress at any time. Why direct your energy at relatively low-level employees when you (assuming you're a US citizen) have the power to effect change top-down? 3. Vice is not a reputable source. It's actually comical that you'd use them of all publications as a source considering that their claim to fame is conspiring with one of the most totalitarian regimes in history (NK) for press and pageviews.
    - infinity0 13y ago
- arh68 13y ago
  I stand by the GP. It's really not that hard for federal employees to transfer: what's hard is getting on board. It's largely done online, so your friends can check it out. https://www.usajobs.gov/ https://www.usajobs.gov/
phaus 13y ago
If you work in a high-technology field, as federal employee, you are often underpaid in comparison to the private sector. I'm a contractor and I make 1/3 less than I did when I was still in the military.
- coopdog 13y ago
  I've found that agencies often lie with regard to rates and get away with it because of their leverage due to the panels. If you check the governments mandatory reporting regarding contracts (often very hard to search) you might find they're paying far more for you than for military staff, regardless of what you're receiving.
user875499 13y ago
Financial considerations aside, leaving an organization is probably not as easy as it may sound. When evaluating alternatives, it can be challenging to identify employers that have and will continue to maintain a flawless moral track record, not only for their own organization but also for the customers and vendors they support. If asked to name such an organization on the fly, one might be hard pressed to pick one that would hold up to HN scrutiny.

by electic 13y ago

You do not have to sell your soul to feed your family. Trust me, they can get another job. The reality is the pay is good and these people do not care what their organization does.

Kylekramer 13y ago

You saying "trust me" doesn't feed their family. Looking at my Facebook page, there are dozen of people I personally know desperate for jobs. Even their belief that working for the NSA was selling their soul was taken for granted, most of them would take it.

griffordson 13y ago
Anyone you know from FB who is unemployed probably isn't eligible to work at the NSA. We aren't talking about WPA jobs after all. I understand your point, lots of people can't be choosy about where they work. But those aren't the people we're talking about here. We're talking about people who currently work at the NSA and I assure you they have skills that are highly sought after in many industries. They definitely don't need their NSA jobs to feed their families.
- mjn 13y ago
  I don't get the impression that there are a lot of jobs out there for pure mathematicians. The conventional wisdom, at least, is that you have three options: tenured professor, NSA, or abandon pure math entirely. And it's not too easy to get a tenured professorship.
  - hkmurakami 13y ago
    do some branches of finance use pure math? (or is it only applied math)
PavlovsCat 13y ago
Here's an idea: don't make babies before you found an ethical way to provide for them? You make it seem like people just wake up one day with families and a job at the NSA as the only option. As general rule: if you could say it in defense of being a member of the Waffen-SS, it's probably not a very solid argument. Everybody has their sob story, but long after those people are dead others will STILL have to deal with the messy, fucked up and stupid structures cowards erected. And with that in mind, my sympathy kinda fades. And that your friends would do it is no argument either, people always seem to have this idea that they themselves (or their friends) are special and ought to not be criticized. Everybody is so fucking magical when it's about them. Contrast this with how we talk and think about people of the past, of other countries or other social groups. Also there are the people blown up by drones, or the ones threatened with it http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/will-nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-be-droned http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/will-nsa-whistleblower-edwa... (because who needs trials when you have "intelligence") Those don't even get to the point of worry about job security, and they don't seem to even figure into any of this.
- rmrfrmrf 13y ago
  1. Omniscience is a commodity now? Please let me know where I can find out all of the information (past, present, and future) about every company I may want to work for -- maybe this database you have access to also has information on what my salary will be a few years from now so I can plan out exactly how many children I want to have. This knowledge base you have access to also lets me know if and when I will lose any job I'm holding at any point in the future, right? I wouldn't want something, uh, unexpected, to occur after having children. Those pesky things -- you just can't seem to take them back! 2. The "ethics" of the NSA can be changed by Congress at any time. Why direct your energy at relatively low-level employees when you (assuming you're a US citizen) have the power to effect change top-down? 3. Vice is not a reputable source. It's actually comical that you'd use them of all publications as a source considering that their claim to fame is conspiring with one of the most totalitarian regimes in history (NK) for press and pageviews.
  - infinity0 13y ago
arh68 13y ago
I stand by the GP. It's really not that hard for federal employees to transfer: what's hard is getting on board. It's largely done online, so your friends can check it out. https://www.usajobs.gov/ https://www.usajobs.gov/

phaus 13y ago

If you work in a high-technology field, as federal employee, you are often underpaid in comparison to the private sector. I'm a contractor and I make 1/3 less than I did when I was still in the military.

coopdog 13y ago
I've found that agencies often lie with regard to rates and get away with it because of their leverage due to the panels. If you check the governments mandatory reporting regarding contracts (often very hard to search) you might find they're paying far more for you than for military staff, regardless of what you're receiving.

user875499 13y ago

Financial considerations aside, leaving an organization is probably not as easy as it may sound. When evaluating alternatives, it can be challenging to identify employers that have and will continue to maintain a flawless moral track record, not only for their own organization but also for the customers and vendors they support. If asked to name such an organization on the fly, one might be hard pressed to pick one that would hold up to HN scrutiny.