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I imagine the fear of not being able to provide for you or your family takes precedence over privacy concerns for the vast majority of people. There was a news

I imagine the fear of not being able to provide for you or your family takes precedence over privacy concerns for the vast majority of people. There was a news report about how 76% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck last week. I'd argue saying "they could leave" assumes a lot.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
If something in the exterior world makes you discontent, then it is not that object which troubles you, but rather your judgement of it; yet to blot out this judgement instantly is within your power. And if your dissatisfaction is based on the condition of your soul, who can prohibit you from correcting your views? Likewise, if you are discontent because you are not doing what seems reasonable to you, why not be active rather than discontent? "But something stronger than me is obstructing me." Still, do not be discontent; for the cause for your inaction is not within you. "But life has no meaning for me if this is not done." Well then, end your life, as calm as if you had succeeded; but don't forget to forgive your adversaries. -- Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations" Everybody dies. Few people live.
md224 13y ago
This is a valid point, and it underscores the importance of being technologists in a (relatively) strong tech job market... we have the luxury of turning down jobs that we feel are part of detrimental systems. And we should take advantage of this luxury whenever we can. Others aren't so lucky.
- phaus 13y ago
  Exactly, I spoke about this issue briefly in the comment below. The sad part is, I'm a technologist (although not a developer) and I still struggled. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5967067 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5967067
jlgreco 13y ago
I thought the NSA hires only the best and the brightest. Why would they have such a difficult time finding new jobs? Hell, I would even consider having "NSA xxxx - summer of 2013" on your resume to be an indicator that you are a person with backbone and a sense of morality. Bonus points right there.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Kylekramer 13y ago
  Maybe I am way off base, but I wasn't under the impression college recruiters were in a position of power when it comes to employment.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    I don't see why not; everybody is hiring straight from colleges these days. Who couldn't use another good recruiter? I don't believe for one instant that these are people just desperately trying to feed their starving family. They have options, they choose to stay on.
    - nitrogen 13y ago
      How many options are there for someone whose primary skill is conversational fluency in and syntactic mastery of Arabic, Russian, and English? We don't see many articles about a commercial shortage of translators.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        I haven't looked into it, but perhaps the students in this audio clip can help you out there. They don't seem to concerned about burning this particular bridge.
electic 13y ago
You do not have to sell your soul to feed your family. Trust me, they can get another job. The reality is the pay is good and these people do not care what their organization does.
- Kylekramer 13y ago
  You saying "trust me" doesn't feed their family. Looking at my Facebook page, there are dozen of people I personally know desperate for jobs. Even their belief that working for the NSA was selling their soul was taken for granted, most of them would take it.
  - griffordson 13y ago
    Anyone you know from FB who is unemployed probably isn't eligible to work at the NSA. We aren't talking about WPA jobs after all. I understand your point, lots of people can't be choosy about where they work. But those aren't the people we're talking about here. We're talking about people who currently work at the NSA and I assure you they have skills that are highly sought after in many industries. They definitely don't need their NSA jobs to feed their families.
    - mjn 13y ago
      I don't get the impression that there are a lot of jobs out there for pure mathematicians. The conventional wisdom, at least, is that you have three options: tenured professor, NSA, or abandon pure math entirely. And it's not too easy to get a tenured professorship.
      - hkmurakami 13y ago
        do some branches of finance use pure math? (or is it only applied math)
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    Here's an idea: don't make babies before you found an ethical way to provide for them? You make it seem like people just wake up one day with families and a job at the NSA as the only option. As general rule: if you could say it in defense of being a member of the Waffen-SS, it's probably not a very solid argument. Everybody has their sob story, but long after those people are dead others will STILL have to deal with the messy, fucked up and stupid structures cowards erected. And with that in mind, my sympathy kinda fades. And that your friends would do it is no argument either, people always seem to have this idea that they themselves (or their friends) are special and ought to not be criticized. Everybody is so fucking magical when it's about them. Contrast this with how we talk and think about people of the past, of other countries or other social groups. Also there are the people blown up by drones, or the ones threatened with it http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/will-nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-be-droned http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/will-nsa-whistleblower-edwa... (because who needs trials when you have "intelligence") Those don't even get to the point of worry about job security, and they don't seem to even figure into any of this.
rhizome 13y ago
If only there was a climate of rampant unemployment among highly-skilled technical people. You're not talking about fast-food workers.
rbanffy 13y ago
> I imagine the fear of not being able to provide for you or your family takes precedence over privacy concerns for the vast majority of people. Convenience over principles is what got us here.
Amadou 13y ago
> I imagine the fear of not being able to provide for you or your family I'll buy that argument for people doing menial customer service work. I don't buy it for people with jobs like these - these sorts of people have all kinds of options available to them. At the very least they probably have TS clearances which is going to open a ton of other doors (maybe just as tainted, but maybe not).

PavlovsCat 13y ago

If something in the exterior world makes you discontent, then it is not that object which troubles you, but rather your judgement of it; yet to blot out this judgement instantly is within your power. And if your dissatisfaction is based on the condition of your soul, who can prohibit you from correcting your views? Likewise, if you are discontent because you are not doing what seems reasonable to you, why not be active rather than discontent? "But something stronger than me is obstructing me." Still, do not be discontent; for the cause for your inaction is not within you. "But life has no meaning for me if this is not done." Well then, end your life, as calm as if you had succeeded; but don't forget to forgive your adversaries. -- Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations" Everybody dies. Few people live.

md224 13y ago

This is a valid point, and it underscores the importance of being technologists in a (relatively) strong tech job market... we have the luxury of turning down jobs that we feel are part of detrimental systems. And we should take advantage of this luxury whenever we can. Others aren't so lucky.

phaus 13y ago
Exactly, I spoke about this issue briefly in the comment below. The sad part is, I'm a technologist (although not a developer) and I still struggled. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5967067 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5967067

jlgreco 13y ago

I thought the NSA hires only the best and the brightest. Why would they have such a difficult time finding new jobs? Hell, I would even consider having "NSA xxxx - summer of 2013" on your resume to be an indicator that you are a person with backbone and a sense of morality. Bonus points right there.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Kylekramer 13y ago
Maybe I am way off base, but I wasn't under the impression college recruiters were in a position of power when it comes to employment.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  I don't see why not; everybody is hiring straight from colleges these days. Who couldn't use another good recruiter? I don't believe for one instant that these are people just desperately trying to feed their starving family. They have options, they choose to stay on.
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    How many options are there for someone whose primary skill is conversational fluency in and syntactic mastery of Arabic, Russian, and English? We don't see many articles about a commercial shortage of translators.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      I haven't looked into it, but perhaps the students in this audio clip can help you out there. They don't seem to concerned about burning this particular bridge.

electic 13y ago

You do not have to sell your soul to feed your family. Trust me, they can get another job. The reality is the pay is good and these people do not care what their organization does.

Kylekramer 13y ago
You saying "trust me" doesn't feed their family. Looking at my Facebook page, there are dozen of people I personally know desperate for jobs. Even their belief that working for the NSA was selling their soul was taken for granted, most of them would take it.
- griffordson 13y ago
  Anyone you know from FB who is unemployed probably isn't eligible to work at the NSA. We aren't talking about WPA jobs after all. I understand your point, lots of people can't be choosy about where they work. But those aren't the people we're talking about here. We're talking about people who currently work at the NSA and I assure you they have skills that are highly sought after in many industries. They definitely don't need their NSA jobs to feed their families.
  - mjn 13y ago
    I don't get the impression that there are a lot of jobs out there for pure mathematicians. The conventional wisdom, at least, is that you have three options: tenured professor, NSA, or abandon pure math entirely. And it's not too easy to get a tenured professorship.
    - hkmurakami 13y ago
      do some branches of finance use pure math? (or is it only applied math)
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Here's an idea: don't make babies before you found an ethical way to provide for them? You make it seem like people just wake up one day with families and a job at the NSA as the only option. As general rule: if you could say it in defense of being a member of the Waffen-SS, it's probably not a very solid argument. Everybody has their sob story, but long after those people are dead others will STILL have to deal with the messy, fucked up and stupid structures cowards erected. And with that in mind, my sympathy kinda fades. And that your friends would do it is no argument either, people always seem to have this idea that they themselves (or their friends) are special and ought to not be criticized. Everybody is so fucking magical when it's about them. Contrast this with how we talk and think about people of the past, of other countries or other social groups. Also there are the people blown up by drones, or the ones threatened with it http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/will-nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-be-droned http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/will-nsa-whistleblower-edwa... (because who needs trials when you have "intelligence") Those don't even get to the point of worry about job security, and they don't seem to even figure into any of this.

rhizome 13y ago

If only there was a climate of rampant unemployment among highly-skilled technical people. You're not talking about fast-food workers.

rbanffy 13y ago

> I imagine the fear of not being able to provide for you or your family takes precedence over privacy concerns for the vast majority of people. Convenience over principles is what got us here.

Amadou 13y ago

> I imagine the fear of not being able to provide for you or your family I'll buy that argument for people doing menial customer service work. I don't buy it for people with jobs like these - these sorts of people have all kinds of options available to them. At the very least they probably have TS clearances which is going to open a ton of other doors (maybe just as tainted, but maybe not).