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I get your outrage, but I think this: It's not about the _People_ of USA or Europe. So let's not become hostile against each other. (It's almost _never_ about

I get your outrage, but I think this: It's not about the _People_ of USA or Europe. So let's not become hostile against each other. (It's almost _never_ about the _people_ between nations. It's _governments_ that fuck up things for the people.) It's about a rotten system, which unfortunately is the US government today. (It's not even about Obama, this is way above people like him.)

Vivtek 13y ago
Now that is a reasonable comment.
h0w412d 13y ago
Yep. If the government represented the will of its people, we'd have sensible gun control and readily available contraception. The government hasn't represented us for a long time.
return0 13y ago
Not trolling, but the truth is that americans largely agree with their government. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/nsa-spying-poll-pew/66093/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/nsa-spying-p... I don't know how much of that is attributed to years of fearmongering, but america is a democratic country.
- kimlelly 13y ago
  > but america is a democratic country. Yes and no. Democracy only works when there is real transparency. And that's the problem with US media: They're in the pockets of Big Money. Result: Brainwashing wins over Democracy.
  - claudius 13y ago
    That is still the responsibility of the American people (and nobody else). If you want to be welcome abroad, behave appropriately.
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      It's a sad fact for me, but I use American tourists as my personal lightning rods when I'm overseas. Loud, wealthy and obvious are the type its handy to have around. Despite being a hair under 2 metres with red hair, the trouble goes to the American tourists when they are nearby. Pickpocketing, nagging sales people, police, security etc are far more likely to go for the American with 2 big cameras and flash clothes. I firmly believe that my travels have been made easier by the poor treatment of Americans that travel.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
joshuak 13y ago
However, as an american I can agree with the sentiment of a foreign citizen that we are the only ones who can effect change in our own government, centrally not him... unless he encourages us to be less complacent by restricting what we can do in his country. I welcome this myself because I have a hard time raising interest in doing anything even amongst my friends. I can't even get people to follow a few easy steps to secure their email, much less march on the NSA. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." "all men" is not ambiguous. It didn't say all Americans.
latj 13y ago
Mainstream America is ok with the spying, lying, indefinite detention, and assassinations (even of their own underage citizens if they have funny sounding names). And, those who dont agree, well, we're still tax payers.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>It's not about the _People_ of USA or Europe. So let's not become hostile against each other. It is about the people. We call this a "democracy" (I know, it's a republic), yet as a whole we fail to engage our government meaningfully. That makes it the peoples' fault. We tolerate this crap in the US because as a whole we suffer no visible consequence from it. Most US citizens remain blissfully unaware. Many of those who are aware don't care because it doesn't affect them in any way they can measure, and/or because they think it makes them safer. If we as a whole suffer in some measurable way, especially of those of us who are wealthy enough to travel are rudely made aware of our own rudeness and inconsideration for others, maybe then more of us will actively oppose this crap. I wouldn't see the revocation of visa-less travel for US citizens in Europe as hostility, or as an unreasonable response to US gov't aggression in the form of our unilaterally spying on everyone.
- angersock 13y ago
  Devil's advocate: is it truly such a great inconvenience for foreigners what we do? Is it a greater inconvenience than what their own countries do?
- kimlelly 13y ago
  > It is about the people. We call this a "democracy". What I meant to say is this: It's not that Americans hate Europeans or vice versa or that Muslims hate Americans or Muslims hate Europeans. We are human beings that share the pains of this existance. We _all_ want to live together in peace - all of us. Now, when you are part of those that _know_ more (better and fully transparent media available, skill of critical thinking acquired in school), it means that you, as an individual, have more _responsibility_ to change things for the better. And I believe this is the case with HN readers (the majority of the general public in the US is probably not part of this priviledged group). So go out and inform your peers about what they can do to advance democracy on this planet.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    >It's not that Americans hate Europeans or vice versa or that Muslims hate Americans or Muslims hate Europeans. We are human beings that share the pains of this existance. We _all_ want to live together in peace - all of us. I was born in the US. I've lived in North America, Europe, and Asia. I agree absolutely. >Now, when you are part of those that _know_ more (better and fully transparent media available, skill of critical thinking acquired in school), it means that you, as an individual, have more _responsibility_ to change things for the better. IMO, my generation has grown up with and grown accustomed to a kind of powerlessness with respect to gov't policy. Demographics heavily favor the Baby Boomer generation in most parts of the country. The psychology of living for twenty years in a "democracy" where gov't policy has to be approved by our parents, or else it will fail, seems to have produced a lot of apathetic people in my cohort. That's my excuse anyway. Nevertheless, without some meaningful feedback concerning our gov't's, or some galvanizing event, I don't see much chance for progress on this front.
rayiner 13y ago
Uh, our people have no problem with us spying on the rest of the world. The U.S. electorate is solidly in favor of maintaining American hegemony in the world, by nearly any means necessary. We're mostly indifferent to Europeans as people, although we know they're supposed to theoretically be our allies (but c.f. all the europeans who weren't willing to go with us into Iraq). This is democracy at work. Look at the last U.S. president that tried to present a softer face to the world: Jimmie Carter. Most people hate Carter here in the U.S., on both sides of the aisle.
TechNewb 13y ago
Was he being serious? Thought it was satire.
primitur 13y ago
It is about the people, and nothing else. No government ever derived its powers without the consent - through apathy or direct support - of its peoples. Every other government was overthrown. So, I concur with the OP: it is time for the American people to start feeling the pressure from those of us in the world who expect better from them. Before its too late.

Vivtek 13y ago

Now that is a reasonable comment.

h0w412d 13y ago

Yep. If the government represented the will of its people, we'd have sensible gun control and readily available contraception. The government hasn't represented us for a long time.

return0 13y ago

Not trolling, but the truth is that americans largely agree with their government. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/nsa-spying-poll-pew/66093/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/nsa-spying-p... I don't know how much of that is attributed to years of fearmongering, but america is a democratic country.

kimlelly 13y ago
> but america is a democratic country. Yes and no. Democracy only works when there is real transparency. And that's the problem with US media: They're in the pockets of Big Money. Result: Brainwashing wins over Democracy.
- claudius 13y ago
  That is still the responsibility of the American people (and nobody else). If you want to be welcome abroad, behave appropriately.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    It's a sad fact for me, but I use American tourists as my personal lightning rods when I'm overseas. Loud, wealthy and obvious are the type its handy to have around. Despite being a hair under 2 metres with red hair, the trouble goes to the American tourists when they are nearby. Pickpocketing, nagging sales people, police, security etc are far more likely to go for the American with 2 big cameras and flash clothes. I firmly believe that my travels have been made easier by the poor treatment of Americans that travel.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

joshuak 13y ago

However, as an american I can agree with the sentiment of a foreign citizen that we are the only ones who can effect change in our own government, centrally not him... unless he encourages us to be less complacent by restricting what we can do in his country. I welcome this myself because I have a hard time raising interest in doing anything even amongst my friends. I can't even get people to follow a few easy steps to secure their email, much less march on the NSA. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." "all men" is not ambiguous. It didn't say all Americans.

latj 13y ago

Mainstream America is ok with the spying, lying, indefinite detention, and assassinations (even of their own underage citizens if they have funny sounding names). And, those who dont agree, well, we're still tax payers.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

>It's not about the _People_ of USA or Europe. So let's not become hostile against each other. It is about the people. We call this a "democracy" (I know, it's a republic), yet as a whole we fail to engage our government meaningfully. That makes it the peoples' fault. We tolerate this crap in the US because as a whole we suffer no visible consequence from it. Most US citizens remain blissfully unaware. Many of those who are aware don't care because it doesn't affect them in any way they can measure, and/or because they think it makes them safer. If we as a whole suffer in some measurable way, especially of those of us who are wealthy enough to travel are rudely made aware of our own rudeness and inconsideration for others, maybe then more of us will actively oppose this crap. I wouldn't see the revocation of visa-less travel for US citizens in Europe as hostility, or as an unreasonable response to US gov't aggression in the form of our unilaterally spying on everyone.

angersock 13y ago
Devil's advocate: is it truly such a great inconvenience for foreigners what we do? Is it a greater inconvenience than what their own countries do?
kimlelly 13y ago
> It is about the people. We call this a "democracy". What I meant to say is this: It's not that Americans hate Europeans or vice versa or that Muslims hate Americans or Muslims hate Europeans. We are human beings that share the pains of this existance. We _all_ want to live together in peace - all of us. Now, when you are part of those that _know_ more (better and fully transparent media available, skill of critical thinking acquired in school), it means that you, as an individual, have more _responsibility_ to change things for the better. And I believe this is the case with HN readers (the majority of the general public in the US is probably not part of this priviledged group). So go out and inform your peers about what they can do to advance democracy on this planet.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >It's not that Americans hate Europeans or vice versa or that Muslims hate Americans or Muslims hate Europeans. We are human beings that share the pains of this existance. We _all_ want to live together in peace - all of us. I was born in the US. I've lived in North America, Europe, and Asia. I agree absolutely. >Now, when you are part of those that _know_ more (better and fully transparent media available, skill of critical thinking acquired in school), it means that you, as an individual, have more _responsibility_ to change things for the better. IMO, my generation has grown up with and grown accustomed to a kind of powerlessness with respect to gov't policy. Demographics heavily favor the Baby Boomer generation in most parts of the country. The psychology of living for twenty years in a "democracy" where gov't policy has to be approved by our parents, or else it will fail, seems to have produced a lot of apathetic people in my cohort. That's my excuse anyway. Nevertheless, without some meaningful feedback concerning our gov't's, or some galvanizing event, I don't see much chance for progress on this front.

rayiner 13y ago

Uh, our people have no problem with us spying on the rest of the world. The U.S. electorate is solidly in favor of maintaining American hegemony in the world, by nearly any means necessary. We're mostly indifferent to Europeans as people, although we know they're supposed to theoretically be our allies (but c.f. all the europeans who weren't willing to go with us into Iraq). This is democracy at work. Look at the last U.S. president that tried to present a softer face to the world: Jimmie Carter. Most people hate Carter here in the U.S., on both sides of the aisle.

TechNewb 13y ago

Was he being serious? Thought it was satire.

primitur 13y ago

It is about the people, and nothing else. No government ever derived its powers without the consent - through apathy or direct support - of its peoples. Every other government was overthrown. So, I concur with the OP: it is time for the American people to start feeling the pressure from those of us in the world who expect better from them. Before its too late.