4 ms·

You are right, I was/am very angry. I should clarify that I'm referring to the US government and, more specifically, to their "justice" and security apparatus.

by HSO 13y ago

Vivtek 13y ago
But you said "citizens".
- HSO 13y ago
  I meant the USG when I said "fascists". It would be obviously stupid to call every American citizen a fascist but the USG fits the term, I have to say, quite well. To think that I would have donated to the Obama campaign in 2008 had I had money back then, or that Obama received the Nobel peace prize!!! In a better world, the committee would demand the prize back and give it to Snowden, Drake, Manning et al. -- that would be one powerful statement!
  - Vivtek 13y ago
    Imagine how I feel - I voted for him. The Peace Prize was ludicrous, since the only thing he remotely did to deserve it was not to be named George Bush. I would dearly love for it to be recalled. In terms of fascism, by the way, there was a list of diagnostic points for fascism that circulated a few years ago - the US meets them all, albeit in embryonic form. We're definitely in a stage of protofascism, if you will. I love seeing this call to avoid US services. Americans don't really start noticing anything until business is threatened or the cable TV goes out; if this call to arms actually has any measurable effect it will be a very positive move indeed.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
reeses 13y ago
There's no need for this. The US government purportedly exists to serve its people. What you proposed, while it may seem extreme, is very much what the US government (and others) proposes when they agree to sanctions against various roque states. The US government is not divorced from the population. It is composed of millions of Americans (and others) who are working to support its various services and programs. Much of the behavior seen recently (especially the NSA/Snowden action) is very understandable if you view it through the lens of someone trying to save their job. The government's actions are the result of these millions of people moving in various directions, mildly shifted with each administration. It's not feasible to think that an outside agent can directly change the way the US government acts. However, as has been demonstrated in the worst way, asymmetrical warfare will change the way the citizens think. Mass boycotts and sanctions would have an effect just as terrorist attacks have. If the citizens of the US lose jobs, income, heck, blockbuster movies because the international market dries up, they will change the way they act. You can't guess how, unfortunately. The largest response will be anger at the rest of the world, which could lead to a Weimar Republic situation. As a US citizen, I'm embarrassed by my government. We had a brief period of time in Obama's first administration when I didn't feel like an apologist or an impotent victim of the tyranny of democracy. A citizen's duty is to work to establish leadership that reflects his or her values. We use a lot of excuses (the USA is too big, one vote doesn't count, we're a representative republic, etc.) but at the end of the day, if someone is Proud to be an American™, then they must take responsibility for its excesses as well.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  If the citizens of the US lose jobs, income, heck, blockbuster movies because the international market dries up, they will change the way they act. You can't guess how, unfortunately. The largest response will be anger at the rest of the world, which could lead to a Weimar Republic situation. I think that's a real danger. From my perspective, most everything in the US is kinda right of center, but the last thing I would want to contribute anything to is to empower the hard right elements in it. Collective punishment just doesn't sit right with me.. I think it tends to hit the wrong people and leave the intended targets mostly unaffected. I mean, US citizens who travel, to see the world and learn about it, and meet people and learn about them, are exactly the ones that should be welcomed and encouraged, no? And if the US economy takes a hit across the board of the high-tech sector, it would also mostly hurt the "small fish", I'm sure. Whatever would make Facebook or Google loose even 1% would also completely shutter a lot of mom and pop shops. (not that people working at Facebook and Google wouldn't also loose jobs, and it would NOT be the people responsible for anything Google or Facebook got punished for) Not that I don't find your attidude impressive, or that you don't have a point. If more would feel so directly responsible for what is done in their name, we wouldn't be here talking about this. So ignore what I say when it comes to your attitude, I just want to explain why I won't be part of putting all Americans into one bag and hitting it. If the rest of the world starts to punish anything American, starts judging people and companies by region code instead of by what they're doing or saying, then it's just "they hate us for being American" for a lot of people, and downhill from there. We've been there quite recently.. as someone who did a lot of stupid battle with Bush followers, that stuff is burned into my retina forever. Generally speaking, you guys have people in your country you could use help with, or at least moral support for, instead of being shunned for them. This can be said about any country, but also about the US. So have a nice 4th of July, and enjoy it. There is this line from "The Wire" that the character played by Steve Earle says to the heroin junkie: "Sorry Bubs... shame ain't worth as much as you think. Let it go." And he's talking about personal shame, not even on behalf of others. If you're embarrassed, use that, and shout from the rooftops; but don't let it actually get inside you. The ones who should be embarrassed aren't, yet the ones who should keep their chins up are feeling down? Nah!

You are right, I was/am very angry. I should clarify that I'm referring to the US government and, more specifically, to their "justice" and security apparatus.

by HSO 13y ago

You are right, I was/am very angry. I should clarify that I'm referring to the US government and, more specifically, to their "justice" and security apparatus.

Vivtek 13y ago

But you said "citizens".

HSO 13y ago
I meant the USG when I said "fascists". It would be obviously stupid to call every American citizen a fascist but the USG fits the term, I have to say, quite well. To think that I would have donated to the Obama campaign in 2008 had I had money back then, or that Obama received the Nobel peace prize!!! In a better world, the committee would demand the prize back and give it to Snowden, Drake, Manning et al. -- that would be one powerful statement!
- Vivtek 13y ago
  Imagine how I feel - I voted for him. The Peace Prize was ludicrous, since the only thing he remotely did to deserve it was not to be named George Bush. I would dearly love for it to be recalled. In terms of fascism, by the way, there was a list of diagnostic points for fascism that circulated a few years ago - the US meets them all, albeit in embryonic form. We're definitely in a stage of protofascism, if you will. I love seeing this call to avoid US services. Americans don't really start noticing anything until business is threatened or the cable TV goes out; if this call to arms actually has any measurable effect it will be a very positive move indeed.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

reeses 13y ago

There's no need for this. The US government purportedly exists to serve its people. What you proposed, while it may seem extreme, is very much what the US government (and others) proposes when they agree to sanctions against various roque states. The US government is not divorced from the population. It is composed of millions of Americans (and others) who are working to support its various services and programs. Much of the behavior seen recently (especially the NSA/Snowden action) is very understandable if you view it through the lens of someone trying to save their job. The government's actions are the result of these millions of people moving in various directions, mildly shifted with each administration. It's not feasible to think that an outside agent can directly change the way the US government acts. However, as has been demonstrated in the worst way, asymmetrical warfare will change the way the citizens think. Mass boycotts and sanctions would have an effect just as terrorist attacks have. If the citizens of the US lose jobs, income, heck, blockbuster movies because the international market dries up, they will change the way they act. You can't guess how, unfortunately. The largest response will be anger at the rest of the world, which could lead to a Weimar Republic situation. As a US citizen, I'm embarrassed by my government. We had a brief period of time in Obama's first administration when I didn't feel like an apologist or an impotent victim of the tyranny of democracy. A citizen's duty is to work to establish leadership that reflects his or her values. We use a lot of excuses (the USA is too big, one vote doesn't count, we're a representative republic, etc.) but at the end of the day, if someone is Proud to be an American™, then they must take responsibility for its excesses as well.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
If the citizens of the US lose jobs, income, heck, blockbuster movies because the international market dries up, they will change the way they act. You can't guess how, unfortunately. The largest response will be anger at the rest of the world, which could lead to a Weimar Republic situation. I think that's a real danger. From my perspective, most everything in the US is kinda right of center, but the last thing I would want to contribute anything to is to empower the hard right elements in it. Collective punishment just doesn't sit right with me.. I think it tends to hit the wrong people and leave the intended targets mostly unaffected. I mean, US citizens who travel, to see the world and learn about it, and meet people and learn about them, are exactly the ones that should be welcomed and encouraged, no? And if the US economy takes a hit across the board of the high-tech sector, it would also mostly hurt the "small fish", I'm sure. Whatever would make Facebook or Google loose even 1% would also completely shutter a lot of mom and pop shops. (not that people working at Facebook and Google wouldn't also loose jobs, and it would NOT be the people responsible for anything Google or Facebook got punished for) Not that I don't find your attidude impressive, or that you don't have a point. If more would feel so directly responsible for what is done in their name, we wouldn't be here talking about this. So ignore what I say when it comes to your attitude, I just want to explain why I won't be part of putting all Americans into one bag and hitting it. If the rest of the world starts to punish anything American, starts judging people and companies by region code instead of by what they're doing or saying, then it's just "they hate us for being American" for a lot of people, and downhill from there. We've been there quite recently.. as someone who did a lot of stupid battle with Bush followers, that stuff is burned into my retina forever. Generally speaking, you guys have people in your country you could use help with, or at least moral support for, instead of being shunned for them. This can be said about any country, but also about the US. So have a nice 4th of July, and enjoy it. There is this line from "The Wire" that the character played by Steve Earle says to the heroin junkie: "Sorry Bubs... shame ain't worth as much as you think. Let it go." And he's talking about personal shame, not even on behalf of others. If you're embarrassed, use that, and shout from the rooftops; but don't let it actually get inside you. The ones who should be embarrassed aren't, yet the ones who should keep their chins up are feeling down? Nah!