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I'm conflicted about whether to upvote or downvote your comment. Calling Americans "fascists" just goes too far, but you have a point. (I'm German.)

HSO 13y ago
You are right, I was/am very angry. I should clarify that I'm referring to the US government and, more specifically, to their "justice" and security apparatus.
- Vivtek 13y ago
  But you said "citizens".
  - HSO 13y ago
    I meant the USG when I said "fascists". It would be obviously stupid to call every American citizen a fascist but the USG fits the term, I have to say, quite well. To think that I would have donated to the Obama campaign in 2008 had I had money back then, or that Obama received the Nobel peace prize!!! In a better world, the committee would demand the prize back and give it to Snowden, Drake, Manning et al. -- that would be one powerful statement!
    - Vivtek 13y ago
      Imagine how I feel - I voted for him. The Peace Prize was ludicrous, since the only thing he remotely did to deserve it was not to be named George Bush. I would dearly love for it to be recalled. In terms of fascism, by the way, there was a list of diagnostic points for fascism that circulated a few years ago - the US meets them all, albeit in embryonic form. We're definitely in a stage of protofascism, if you will. I love seeing this call to avoid US services. Americans don't really start noticing anything until business is threatened or the cable TV goes out; if this call to arms actually has any measurable effect it will be a very positive move indeed.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- reeses 13y ago
  There's no need for this. The US government purportedly exists to serve its people. What you proposed, while it may seem extreme, is very much what the US government (and others) proposes when they agree to sanctions against various roque states. The US government is not divorced from the population. It is composed of millions of Americans (and others) who are working to support its various services and programs. Much of the behavior seen recently (especially the NSA/Snowden action) is very understandable if you view it through the lens of someone trying to save their job. The government's actions are the result of these millions of people moving in various directions, mildly shifted with each administration. It's not feasible to think that an outside agent can directly change the way the US government acts. However, as has been demonstrated in the worst way, asymmetrical warfare will change the way the citizens think. Mass boycotts and sanctions would have an effect just as terrorist attacks have. If the citizens of the US lose jobs, income, heck, blockbuster movies because the international market dries up, they will change the way they act. You can't guess how, unfortunately. The largest response will be anger at the rest of the world, which could lead to a Weimar Republic situation. As a US citizen, I'm embarrassed by my government. We had a brief period of time in Obama's first administration when I didn't feel like an apologist or an impotent victim of the tyranny of democracy. A citizen's duty is to work to establish leadership that reflects his or her values. We use a lot of excuses (the USA is too big, one vote doesn't count, we're a representative republic, etc.) but at the end of the day, if someone is Proud to be an American™, then they must take responsibility for its excesses as well.
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    If the citizens of the US lose jobs, income, heck, blockbuster movies because the international market dries up, they will change the way they act. You can't guess how, unfortunately. The largest response will be anger at the rest of the world, which could lead to a Weimar Republic situation. I think that's a real danger. From my perspective, most everything in the US is kinda right of center, but the last thing I would want to contribute anything to is to empower the hard right elements in it. Collective punishment just doesn't sit right with me.. I think it tends to hit the wrong people and leave the intended targets mostly unaffected. I mean, US citizens who travel, to see the world and learn about it, and meet people and learn about them, are exactly the ones that should be welcomed and encouraged, no? And if the US economy takes a hit across the board of the high-tech sector, it would also mostly hurt the "small fish", I'm sure. Whatever would make Facebook or Google loose even 1% would also completely shutter a lot of mom and pop shops. (not that people working at Facebook and Google wouldn't also loose jobs, and it would NOT be the people responsible for anything Google or Facebook got punished for) Not that I don't find your attidude impressive, or that you don't have a point. If more would feel so directly responsible for what is done in their name, we wouldn't be here talking about this. So ignore what I say when it comes to your attitude, I just want to explain why I won't be part of putting all Americans into one bag and hitting it. If the rest of the world starts to punish anything American, starts judging people and companies by region code instead of by what they're doing or saying, then it's just "they hate us for being American" for a lot of people, and downhill from there. We've been there quite recently.. as someone who did a lot of stupid battle with Bush followers, that stuff is burned into my retina forever. Generally speaking, you guys have people in your country you could use help with, or at least moral support for, instead of being shunned for them. This can be said about any country, but also about the US. So have a nice 4th of July, and enjoy it. There is this line from "The Wire" that the character played by Steve Earle says to the heroin junkie: "Sorry Bubs... shame ain't worth as much as you think. Let it go." And he's talking about personal shame, not even on behalf of others. If you're embarrassed, use that, and shout from the rooftops; but don't let it actually get inside you. The ones who should be embarrassed aren't, yet the ones who should keep their chins up are feeling down? Nah!
krapp 13y ago
Consider this... how would you feel if he'd said the actions of the Israeli government in regards to their treatment of Palestinians were unconscionable and so all Jews should be barred from Europe? How right was it when the US decided that Pearl Harbor was such an outrage that it might be a good idea to just lock up all the American Japanese for a while? Answering fascism with a greater fascism is never a viable solution. As much as Europeans want (and justifiably so) to hate the US government for their actions, irrespective of the complicity of their own governments and, by extension, own citizens, it would be more productive and more reflective of reality to realize that many Americans actually agree with them.
- mathieuh 13y ago
  As much as Zionists keep pressing it as the truth, hating Zionism and Israel is not hating Jews.
  - krapp 13y ago
    Perhaps. I don't want to open that particular can of worms up inside this current can of worms, though. I was just using it as an example of how irrational "expelling all Americans from Europe" seemed to me.
  - colinb 13y ago
    I'm a zionist, and a jew. And I think that hating zionism, and hating Israel is hating the jews. Hating the policies of an individual Israeli government is politics. I can tell the difference. Interestingly, I'm also a [naturalised] american living in the UK. I wrote to my MP the last time there was public debate about electronic surveillance and I voted against the last government because they were so consistently in favour of more spying with less oversight. But feel free to hate me too. Perhaps I'm the wrong kind of jewish, american, resident of Britain.
    - reeses 13y ago
      People attacking zionism and the existence of Israel are generally being anti-semitic. MLK was correct in that accusation[1]. Does the Israeli government do things that I, as a zionist, despise? Absolutely. Does this mean that the State of Israel is illegitimate? No. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_an_Anti-Zionist_Friend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_an_Anti-Zionist_Frien... Even if one comment, taken out of context, resulted in a much more general Twain-like attribution.
malandrew 13y ago
Calling Americans fascists goes too far because a lot of us don't support these programs, but calling everyone that supports these mass surveillance NSA programs fascists is not unreasonable, after all the policy of "all foreigners are fair game" certainly meets the criteria of "belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader" (from the OED). If that doesn't describe the arguments made by USG politicians in defense of these programs, then I don't know what does. It's fascism an an international level instead of an intranational level.

HSO 13y ago

You are right, I was/am very angry. I should clarify that I'm referring to the US government and, more specifically, to their "justice" and security apparatus.

Vivtek 13y ago
But you said "citizens".
- HSO 13y ago
  I meant the USG when I said "fascists". It would be obviously stupid to call every American citizen a fascist but the USG fits the term, I have to say, quite well. To think that I would have donated to the Obama campaign in 2008 had I had money back then, or that Obama received the Nobel peace prize!!! In a better world, the committee would demand the prize back and give it to Snowden, Drake, Manning et al. -- that would be one powerful statement!
  - Vivtek 13y ago
    Imagine how I feel - I voted for him. The Peace Prize was ludicrous, since the only thing he remotely did to deserve it was not to be named George Bush. I would dearly love for it to be recalled. In terms of fascism, by the way, there was a list of diagnostic points for fascism that circulated a few years ago - the US meets them all, albeit in embryonic form. We're definitely in a stage of protofascism, if you will. I love seeing this call to avoid US services. Americans don't really start noticing anything until business is threatened or the cable TV goes out; if this call to arms actually has any measurable effect it will be a very positive move indeed.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
reeses 13y ago
There's no need for this. The US government purportedly exists to serve its people. What you proposed, while it may seem extreme, is very much what the US government (and others) proposes when they agree to sanctions against various roque states. The US government is not divorced from the population. It is composed of millions of Americans (and others) who are working to support its various services and programs. Much of the behavior seen recently (especially the NSA/Snowden action) is very understandable if you view it through the lens of someone trying to save their job. The government's actions are the result of these millions of people moving in various directions, mildly shifted with each administration. It's not feasible to think that an outside agent can directly change the way the US government acts. However, as has been demonstrated in the worst way, asymmetrical warfare will change the way the citizens think. Mass boycotts and sanctions would have an effect just as terrorist attacks have. If the citizens of the US lose jobs, income, heck, blockbuster movies because the international market dries up, they will change the way they act. You can't guess how, unfortunately. The largest response will be anger at the rest of the world, which could lead to a Weimar Republic situation. As a US citizen, I'm embarrassed by my government. We had a brief period of time in Obama's first administration when I didn't feel like an apologist or an impotent victim of the tyranny of democracy. A citizen's duty is to work to establish leadership that reflects his or her values. We use a lot of excuses (the USA is too big, one vote doesn't count, we're a representative republic, etc.) but at the end of the day, if someone is Proud to be an American™, then they must take responsibility for its excesses as well.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  If the citizens of the US lose jobs, income, heck, blockbuster movies because the international market dries up, they will change the way they act. You can't guess how, unfortunately. The largest response will be anger at the rest of the world, which could lead to a Weimar Republic situation. I think that's a real danger. From my perspective, most everything in the US is kinda right of center, but the last thing I would want to contribute anything to is to empower the hard right elements in it. Collective punishment just doesn't sit right with me.. I think it tends to hit the wrong people and leave the intended targets mostly unaffected. I mean, US citizens who travel, to see the world and learn about it, and meet people and learn about them, are exactly the ones that should be welcomed and encouraged, no? And if the US economy takes a hit across the board of the high-tech sector, it would also mostly hurt the "small fish", I'm sure. Whatever would make Facebook or Google loose even 1% would also completely shutter a lot of mom and pop shops. (not that people working at Facebook and Google wouldn't also loose jobs, and it would NOT be the people responsible for anything Google or Facebook got punished for) Not that I don't find your attidude impressive, or that you don't have a point. If more would feel so directly responsible for what is done in their name, we wouldn't be here talking about this. So ignore what I say when it comes to your attitude, I just want to explain why I won't be part of putting all Americans into one bag and hitting it. If the rest of the world starts to punish anything American, starts judging people and companies by region code instead of by what they're doing or saying, then it's just "they hate us for being American" for a lot of people, and downhill from there. We've been there quite recently.. as someone who did a lot of stupid battle with Bush followers, that stuff is burned into my retina forever. Generally speaking, you guys have people in your country you could use help with, or at least moral support for, instead of being shunned for them. This can be said about any country, but also about the US. So have a nice 4th of July, and enjoy it. There is this line from "The Wire" that the character played by Steve Earle says to the heroin junkie: "Sorry Bubs... shame ain't worth as much as you think. Let it go." And he's talking about personal shame, not even on behalf of others. If you're embarrassed, use that, and shout from the rooftops; but don't let it actually get inside you. The ones who should be embarrassed aren't, yet the ones who should keep their chins up are feeling down? Nah!

krapp 13y ago

Consider this... how would you feel if he'd said the actions of the Israeli government in regards to their treatment of Palestinians were unconscionable and so all Jews should be barred from Europe? How right was it when the US decided that Pearl Harbor was such an outrage that it might be a good idea to just lock up all the American Japanese for a while? Answering fascism with a greater fascism is never a viable solution. As much as Europeans want (and justifiably so) to hate the US government for their actions, irrespective of the complicity of their own governments and, by extension, own citizens, it would be more productive and more reflective of reality to realize that many Americans actually agree with them.

mathieuh 13y ago
As much as Zionists keep pressing it as the truth, hating Zionism and Israel is not hating Jews.
- krapp 13y ago
  Perhaps. I don't want to open that particular can of worms up inside this current can of worms, though. I was just using it as an example of how irrational "expelling all Americans from Europe" seemed to me.
- colinb 13y ago
  I'm a zionist, and a jew. And I think that hating zionism, and hating Israel is hating the jews. Hating the policies of an individual Israeli government is politics. I can tell the difference. Interestingly, I'm also a [naturalised] american living in the UK. I wrote to my MP the last time there was public debate about electronic surveillance and I voted against the last government because they were so consistently in favour of more spying with less oversight. But feel free to hate me too. Perhaps I'm the wrong kind of jewish, american, resident of Britain.
  - reeses 13y ago
    People attacking zionism and the existence of Israel are generally being anti-semitic. MLK was correct in that accusation[1]. Does the Israeli government do things that I, as a zionist, despise? Absolutely. Does this mean that the State of Israel is illegitimate? No. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_an_Anti-Zionist_Friend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_an_Anti-Zionist_Frien... Even if one comment, taken out of context, resulted in a much more general Twain-like attribution.

malandrew 13y ago

Calling Americans fascists goes too far because a lot of us don't support these programs, but calling everyone that supports these mass surveillance NSA programs fascists is not unreasonable, after all the policy of "all foreigners are fair game" certainly meets the criteria of "belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader" (from the OED). If that doesn't describe the arguments made by USG politicians in defense of these programs, then I don't know what does. It's fascism an an international level instead of an intranational level.