14 ms·

Restore the Fourth

372 points by thepumpkin1979 13y ago

dllthomas 13y ago
Also: write, call, or visit your local representatives and invite them. Whether they go in person or send someone, whether to participate or to talk, engagement there could be valuable.
jdp23 13y ago
There's a roundup of the recent press about Restore the Fourth at http://getfisaright.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/restorethe4th-coverage-roundup/ http://getfisaright.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/restorethe4th-c...
pvnick 13y ago
Note: This happens tomorrow. For HNers that live in the US, please find the closest protest to where you live and get out there! Please stay polite, dress nicely, and freshen up on your first and fourth amendments. Edit: Also, call 1-STOP-323-NSA to be connected with your local congresspeople. You will be given a list of talking points and it's super easy. Call today (hell, call now), as government offices will be closed tomorrow.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  Get out there indeed! But also, bring others! Friends! Family! If they don't understand why, explain it! Ask them to do the same!
- kn0thing 13y ago
  Hope to see plenty of you at the NY event tomorrow! I and most of reddit's NY office will be there. http://alexisohanian.com/help-me-restore-the-fourth-this-fourth-of-july http://alexisohanian.com/help-me-restore-the-fourth-this-fou...
- coldpie 13y ago
  I'm planning to go tomorrow, but I'm confused why they're doing it on the fourth. Nobody is going to be in the building we're gathering around. And lots of people are going to be out of town.
  - pvnick 13y ago
    Mostly symbolic reasons (independence day, 4th of july, 4th amendment, etc), and it'll be nice because everybody will have off from work. There were some long, drawn out discussions early on in the planning phase from which it was agreed that July 4th would, in fact, be the best date on which to hold these protests.
  - codyb 13y ago
    I agree that the date was a poor choice. So many people traveling, barbecuing, and engaged in other activities. Despite this I will attend as well tomorrow. It'd be pretty cool to see Alexis Ohanian at the rally (I believe his is the comment currently (5:37PM) above yours). Although pvnik who replied to you points out everyone being off work which is a very solid point. Apparently it was decided to be the best date. I guess I like the symbolism. Still not sure though.
- LoganCale 13y ago
  Unfortunately, in states like Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Colorado, the Dakotas, etc., there's only one protest occurring, and the states are large enough to make short notice travel all the way across the state impossible for many who may otherwise want to participate.
  - afarrell 13y ago
    Isn't it possible to email/call people you know and spontaneously show up at your town hall or library or something?
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    In at least one of those states (Utah), the scheduled protest occurred last month. Edit: looks like a new one was added for tomorrow.
dclowd9901 13y ago
I know it's a bit on the nose to point it out, but sort of poetic how all of this fourth amendment business ended up coinciding with the Fourth of July independence celebrations.
- showerst 13y ago
  I can't really comment on the plans since DC's link is broken, but scheduling a gathering on July 4th is odd because they'll just get dissolved into the crowds who come for the fireworks. Maybe they're doing it earlier in the day, or hoping that the big crowds will see their message in passing.
- loceng 13y ago
  Quite sure it was purposeful. People will be going out in crowds anyway, so any who are clueless and don't really feel its an issue may be disrupted by those who protest, and hopefully learn something about what's going on.
dllthomas 13y ago
There's been much talk about this, but here's the EFF's take: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/restore-fourth-campaign-organizes-protests-against-unconstitutional-surveillance https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/restore-fourth-campaig... Long story short: GO! DRAG OTHERS!
kcorbitt 13y ago
I'll be at the Utah event, conveniently located directly in front of the new NSA data center. There have been reports that people who stop for pictures have been asked firmly to keep moving -- it'll be interesting to see how a demonstration plays out.
robomartin 13y ago
The unfortunate reality today is that we are living in a country where you really have to be afraid of the consequences of exercising your Constitutional right of free speech and assembly. I never thought I'd have this thoughts in the US. Never. We often referred to banana republic dictatorships enslaving their people. Never in the US, right? Today you have to be afraid to stick your neck out because the government is watching and recording as much of your life as possible. And there's a likelihood they will use what they have on you to exercise their ability to take revenge against anything you say or do, legality and constitutionality be damned. What the IRS did to Tea Party groups is probably just the tip of a very large iceberg. The uncomfortable reality is that the only peaceful way to fix the problem is to expose yourself to the potential of government retaliation by, ironically, exercising your right to free speech and assembly. And so we have to participate in these demonstrations with full acceptance of the potential risks. Ultimately it will boil down to the political process. And that means really giving our reality some thought when it comes time to choose your representatives. If you are a hard-core Liberal it is time you wake up and realize the monster your party has created. They are intent in growing government and taking control over as much of your life as possible. Time to apply the same passion and energy you had in voting-in Obama to let him know that this has to stop. If you are a hard-core Republican and keep voting-in these religious assholes bent on world domination and delusional social control (gays, abortion, etc.). Wake up and think. You are just as guilty as Liberals of voting as a tribe rather than as an independent thinker. If you are a Libertarian, wake up and make sure other's understand why this is the best path forward for our country. Less government. Less intrusion. Less control. More freedom. THIS IS NOT THE COUNTRY WE WANT TO LEAVE TO OUR CHILDREN. Think about that for a moment. Don't be so fucking selfish. They, the government, politicians, agencies, work for us. They don't own us. I still believe we can fix this within the legal and political framework already in place. Next election be very careful about who you vote for. Don't fall pray to pandering. We need adults in the room who can fix problems and stop us form sliding into the abyss. The problems are tough and not everyone is going to get their freebies. Don't let them pander to your needs or to your group (religious, union, whatever) and buy your votes. Every fucked South American regime has a foundation in buying popular votes by pandering, giveaways and pitting the masses against intellectual or business leaders. If you want the US to be like them, continue voting like sheep. If you don't, let the ruling class know it. They work for us. They do not get to do as they please with our country. Think.
boi_v2 13y ago
Streets, there is no better place to protest and wake people up. We've got to fight this, the world can't keep going in this extremely dangerous direction.
trekky1700 13y ago
While we're at it, we should also stand up for the second amendment just for shits and giggles. Invite all the NRA guys over and we'll have a "protect the two hundred year old amendments that were created with no knowledge of future advances/changes in technology/society while keeping to a paranoid delusion that the government not only cares, but is obsessed with and watches the small unimportant happenings of our day-to-day lives" party. I'll bring the aluminum caps.
- lukifer 13y ago
  Obviously it's not about your day-to-day life. It's about the raw power that comes knowledge, especially when databased and cross-referenced in perpetuity. I'll even concede that these programs are being constructed out of genuine interest in public safety. But what happens when a malicious hacker breaks in? Or China? Or corrupt insiders start selling blackmail secrets to the highest bidder? Or the next Nixon is elected? The 4th exists for a reason, and privacy is only a secondary benefit. What really matters is preventing concentration of power. And if you don't think having access to a limitless database on everyone is dangerous, you need to read up on Sun Tzu.
  - trekky1700 13y ago
    If a hacker wants it, will distributing it between Facebook, Microsoft, Google and Apple really stop them. It wouldn't stop me. With these sites we've been throwing this information out there for years telling ourselves it's secure, and when someone finally showed us all what we already knew, everyone started freaking out like this was news. We've been throwing paper airplanes off skyscrapers while yelling at people not to look at them for years. This isn't even someone looking, this is somewhere between someone grabbing all of the paper airplanes and putting them in a huge disorganized room full of trillions of other paper airplanes and someone being able to look at the paper airplane if they get permission from a third party that always says yes. Either way, do you trust Google, Apple and Facebook more with this than the government? What does happen in any of those worst case scenarios? The Chinese find out you like George Takei on Facebook and occasionally stock your ex? The next Nixon finds out you own an iPhone and have some great iCloud photos? Corrupt insiders try to blackmail you for secretly watching that One Direction music video on YouTube a few dozen times? I think more than anything I'm just pissy because what used to be a cool avenue for tech/startup news has become this weird, paranoid community obsessed with Big Brother watching them. Every day I feel more like I'm checking NRA news than Hacker News. It's really depressing.
Kiro 13y ago
I think this protest would get more international attention if it didn't focus on the amendments. In my country most people can't cite a single thing from our supreme law so we can't really relate to the obsession with the constitution.
- wavefunction 13y ago
  The 4th of July is the US celebration of independence from Great Britain. It is the celebration of the freedoms that many of our countrymen have fought and died for. The "4th" also refers to the 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America which holds that (any) People should be free in their papers and effects from unreasonable searches (spying) by their Government. We are taught that these are not rights granted by a god, or by consent, or by a monarch, but are rights inherent for all people whether they live in America or not. They are natural rights, like the right to happiness and to pursue your life without harming others. I am sorry if it seems like this is a very American-centric protest, but it is up to Americans to change our government for the better. We have too many of our fellow countrymen who misinterpret or disregard the Constitution, and it is up to us to remind them what so many great men and women died for.
gobengo 13y ago
Keeping the site up yesterday was the first project for http://sina.is/task-force/ http://sina.is/task-force/
Geee 13y ago
As a non-US person I couldn't care less about the US constitution, and this whole thing goes to show that Americans really don't care about us either. How about trying to honor just a little bit the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, specifically the Article 12?
- xradionut 13y ago
  We do care, it's just that we are cynical about real change that actually makes a difference for the populous at large. Any course of action won't have results or will have bad results.
donohoe 13y ago
I'm hoping to take the kids to this one - Union Square in NYC. On a separate note I have a browser extension that people run on the Facebook sight. It will be reminding people of NSA coverage through the July 4th and long weekend. Just a simple PSA
- bendoernberg 13y ago
  What a great idea!
anigbrowl 13y ago
I think what's needed is a 28th amendment that creates an explicit right to privacy. I think it's pointless to call for 'restoring' the fourth when in fact it does not work the way most people imagine and never has. Case in point: there's another thread today about the Post Office logging mail cover information for law enforcement, and people express surprise that this isn't a violation of the 4th amendment. Within 5 minutes of looking, I found an 1878 case (Ex parte Jackson) articulating the view that the contents of the mails are protected (and require a warrant to open) but that the exterior information is not. Perhaps it's because I'm not an American and learned what I know about American law by reading it cold rather than growing up within a web of assumptions about it, but it seems obvious to me that 4th amendment protections are actually fairly narrow, because it allows for all sorts of reasonable searches and seizures. The fact is that as Americans you don't have a proper constitutional guarantee of privacy. You have a half-assed one that was semi-invented by a liberal court in the 1960s in what even liberal legal scholars consider to be an embarrassing example of judicial overreach - and this is why the right wing in America has never been able to accept Roe v Wade. The US needs a proper and explicit right to privacy, not one that was discovered in the penumbrae of other amendments and which could easily be lost there again, and not one that is subject to first amendment attacks (the usual argument of junk/bulk mail senders).
- mpyne 13y ago
  And after we do that we still need to establish some kind of bilateral framework with the E.U. about what types of privacy non-USPERs will have.... somehow I don't see a 28th Amendment that explicitly gives the whole rest of the world the same strong privacy rights as Americans as being politically feasible, so there would still be that disparity.
yaddayadda 13y ago
I find it ironic that they are using Facebook[1] (among others) to protest the "... right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Facebook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Facebook
- wavefunction 13y ago
  The population of Facebook is exactly the sort of people that need this sort of outreach. It makes perfect sense to have a resource there, especially since some people's entire Internet usage centers only around Facebook.
bendoernberg 13y ago
You can also help the cause by putting the Internet Defense League's "For Freedom" code on your website http://members.internetdefenseleague.org/ http://members.internetdefenseleague.org/
jmhamel 13y ago
I know this is beside the point of the site, but I have to comment about how eye-catching the design is. Did you have any specific inspiration, or resources that I could read that you used for the design?
sinak 13y ago
A quick note that this new version of the site was designed and launched by the Rapid Internet Task Force [1] in response to a request from Rt4 yesterday. Thanks to everyone who's helped so far to make it! It's been really awe inspiring to have over 20 people come and figure out both server scaling and a new frontend for the site over the course of about 24 hours. We're working on new event pages at the moment: they should be online in the next couple of hours. If you're interested in helping with projects like this, sign up below. And please do call 1-STOP-323-NSA to tell Congress to stop surveillance. [1] http://sina.is/task-force http://sina.is/task-force
- bobwaycott 13y ago
  Just want to add that it's been both a lot of fun and a pleasure to work with everyone on this. Staying up till 7am was totally worth it.
  - sinak 13y ago
    A big big props to bob, austin, alex, chris, brady, kriss, eli, beau, sahar, teddy, michael, BC, wyatt, ameen, cole, laurence and everyone else who's been involved.
    - IceyEC 13y ago
      Working with everybody on this has been a blast!
- Hario 13y ago
  Also quick note to point out that Sinak has been doing stellar work as a designer, backend engineer, and leader throughout this. Props to you for gathering us together, Sina.
  - bobwaycott 13y ago
    Absolutely.
- bendoernberg 13y ago
Helpful_Bunny 13y ago
You're all part of the show[1]. (Would You Kindly Remember Which Tech Teams Ran the Obama Campaign? And their connection to Reddit?) You have no idea how predatory you need to be to face Power down, and a sponsored Face Book / Reddit protest is not your friend. $100k donations - to whom? People forging careers in Social Media Shaping (or as us old timers like to call it, propaganda[2]) and so on? This is a serious warning (and I fully expect a ban, or "down votes" for this, given the political alignment of HN): you need to be hard, sharp, fast, ruthless and enjoy blood sports to get into this game. I suspect most of you are not: and the people "running" this campaign via Reddit / Face Book are really not your friends[3]. And since we are living in a time where a Face Book "threat" from a teenager can get you prison time, I'll merely give you a quotation from a science FICTION novel (not even a real political theorist, they're dangerous / now under the "banned" list in America): "The personal, as everyone’s so fucking fond of saying, is political. So if some idiot politician, some power player, tries to execute policies that harm you or those you care about, take it personally. Get angry. The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs, hardware and soft-. Only the little people suffer at the hands of Justice; the creatures of power slide from under it with a wink and a grin. If you want justice, you will have to claw it from them. Make it personal. Do as much damage as you can. Get your message across. That way, you stand a better chance of being taken seriously next time. Of being considered dangerous. And make no mistake about this: being taken seriously, being considered dangerous marks the difference - the only difference in their eyes - between players and little people. Players they will make deals with. Little people they liquidate. And time and again they cream your liquidation, your displacement, your torture and brutal execution with the ultimate insult that it’s just business, it’s politics, it’s the way of the world, it’s a tough life and that it’s nothing personal. Well, fuck them. Make it personal.” ~ Altered Carbon, Richard Morgan. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQEDojPZ7YI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQEDojPZ7YI [2]http://www.propagandatheory.com/history-of-propaganda/french-revolution/propaganda-of-the-french-revolution-satire-from-england http://www.propagandatheory.com/history-of-propaganda/french... [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4pIXQvxMeA&list=PLA62577633C7A7089 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4pIXQvxMeA&list=PLA62577633...
- bendoernberg 13y ago
  I'm co-organizing the NYC group, and I've been on the national conference calls for the past few days. Can't speak for others, but I'd be happy to sit down with you or anyone else and talk about what we're doing, what the goals are, and assure you that I'm not a shadowy social media shaper.
tokenadult 13y ago
I looked it up, and see that my family could conveniently participate in one of the Restore the Fourth protests. So I just talked to my wife about it, and that is our plan for celebrating the Fourth of July ("Independence Day" is the holiday's official name) this year. What could be more American as a way to celebrate America than to participate in a public protest? By the way, our friends in Taiwan, which now enjoys freedom of the press after people power pushed out a dicatorial regime, have produced one of those funny animated news videos http://youtu.be/hjItu4SchJU http://youtu.be/hjItu4SchJU urging viewers to participate in the Restore the Fourth protests. This is why I am glad I participated in Taiwan's democracy movement[1], and why I continue to support China's democracy movement. What goes around comes around. Democracy can never have too many friends. Freedom is something for all of humankind to share and to defend and to cherish. [1] The dictatorship in power in Taiwan when I first lived there eventually fell, after a largely peaceful people power revolution that forced a transformation to an open political system. In the years leading up to that transformation, people I know personally were imprisoned for leading peaceful protests urging free and fair elections and a stop to censorship. (For example, the father of one of my wife's high school classmates was in prison while they were in high school. The classmate is now the godmother of my son who was born in Taiwan.) Most people don't have the courage to go to prison--especially prisons like those in Taiwan at the time. But courage is what it takes to undermine a dictatorship. A successful movement for greater freedom requires great courage, and a degree of social trust among the movement participants that is not easy to find. Allow me to repeat advice I have shared here on Hacker News before. If you really want to be an idealistic but hard-headed freedom-fighter, mobilizing an effective popular movement for more freedom wherever you live, I suggest you read deeply in the free, downloadable publications of the Albert Einstein Institution, http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html remembering that the transition from dictatorship to democracy described in those publications is an actual historical process with recent examples around the world that we can all learn from. You can find publications in Arabic, Azeri, Belarusian, Burmese, Burma (Chin), Burma (Jing-paw), Burma (Karen), Burma (Mon), Chinese (Mandarin), Dutch, English, Estonian, Farsi, French, German, Hebrew, Indonesian, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Kyrgyz, Latvian, Lithuanian, Macedonian, Norwegian, Portuguese, Russian, Serbian, Spanish, Thai, Tibetan, and Ukrainian there to share with your friends around the world.
ndesaulniers 13y ago
Did hearing the President say "I think it’s important to recognize that you can’t have 100 per cent security and also then have 100 per cent privacy and zero inconvenience" bum you out? Would you like the NSA to go back to the drawing board on providing security and privacy? Are you ashamed that people around the world have lost trust in American institutions, particularly businesses with online presence? Do you wish the greater American population better understood what liberties they are giving up to stop the seemingly unending, spreading threat of terrorism? Join us, this 4th of July! The Restore the Fourth movement is holding a peaceful protest in San Francisco. We plan to meet at UN Plaza at 11. Bring water and patriotism. Hopefully together we can raise awareness for the issue. Feel free to contact me, I'm sure I forgot a bunch of stuff. See you on the streets!
dllthomas 13y ago
The SF event was fantastic, and I am proud to have been a part. Even in the face of the BART strike, we had a reasonable turnout. One thing that was going through my head during the march: much ado has been made about Obama's statement that "you can't have 100% security and also have 100% privacy." I think it deserves rebuttal, but a more careful one than a simple statement that it is false. It is not false; if Obama had stopped before the "and" it would have still been true: you can't have 100% security. What bothers me about it is that it ignores the fact that liberty itself - while valuable in its own right - is also an essential part of security against some threats. It is also unreasonable that "there are tradeoffs" be used as an excuse to avoid discussion of whether the decisions being made are appropriate.

372 points by thepumpkin1979 13y ago

Also: write, call, or visit your local representatives and invite them. Whether they go in person or send someone, whether to participate or to talk, engagement there could be valuable.

jdp23 13y ago

There's a roundup of the recent press about Restore the Fourth at http://getfisaright.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/restorethe4th-coverage-roundup/ http://getfisaright.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/restorethe4th-c...

pvnick 13y ago

Note: This happens tomorrow. For HNers that live in the US, please find the closest protest to where you live and get out there! Please stay polite, dress nicely, and freshen up on your first and fourth amendments. Edit: Also, call 1-STOP-323-NSA to be connected with your local congresspeople. You will be given a list of talking points and it's super easy. Call today (hell, call now), as government offices will be closed tomorrow.

dllthomas 13y ago
Get out there indeed! But also, bring others! Friends! Family! If they don't understand why, explain it! Ask them to do the same!
kn0thing 13y ago
Hope to see plenty of you at the NY event tomorrow! I and most of reddit's NY office will be there. http://alexisohanian.com/help-me-restore-the-fourth-this-fourth-of-july http://alexisohanian.com/help-me-restore-the-fourth-this-fou...
coldpie 13y ago
I'm planning to go tomorrow, but I'm confused why they're doing it on the fourth. Nobody is going to be in the building we're gathering around. And lots of people are going to be out of town.
- pvnick 13y ago
  Mostly symbolic reasons (independence day, 4th of july, 4th amendment, etc), and it'll be nice because everybody will have off from work. There were some long, drawn out discussions early on in the planning phase from which it was agreed that July 4th would, in fact, be the best date on which to hold these protests.
- codyb 13y ago
  I agree that the date was a poor choice. So many people traveling, barbecuing, and engaged in other activities. Despite this I will attend as well tomorrow. It'd be pretty cool to see Alexis Ohanian at the rally (I believe his is the comment currently (5:37PM) above yours). Although pvnik who replied to you points out everyone being off work which is a very solid point. Apparently it was decided to be the best date. I guess I like the symbolism. Still not sure though.
LoganCale 13y ago
Unfortunately, in states like Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Colorado, the Dakotas, etc., there's only one protest occurring, and the states are large enough to make short notice travel all the way across the state impossible for many who may otherwise want to participate.
- afarrell 13y ago
  Isn't it possible to email/call people you know and spontaneously show up at your town hall or library or something?
- nitrogen 13y ago
  In at least one of those states (Utah), the scheduled protest occurred last month. Edit: looks like a new one was added for tomorrow.

dclowd9901 13y ago

I know it's a bit on the nose to point it out, but sort of poetic how all of this fourth amendment business ended up coinciding with the Fourth of July independence celebrations.

showerst 13y ago
I can't really comment on the plans since DC's link is broken, but scheduling a gathering on July 4th is odd because they'll just get dissolved into the crowds who come for the fireworks. Maybe they're doing it earlier in the day, or hoping that the big crowds will see their message in passing.
loceng 13y ago
Quite sure it was purposeful. People will be going out in crowds anyway, so any who are clueless and don't really feel its an issue may be disrupted by those who protest, and hopefully learn something about what's going on.

dllthomas 13y ago

There's been much talk about this, but here's the EFF's take: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/restore-fourth-campaign-organizes-protests-against-unconstitutional-surveillance https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/restore-fourth-campaig... Long story short: GO! DRAG OTHERS!

kcorbitt 13y ago

I'll be at the Utah event, conveniently located directly in front of the new NSA data center. There have been reports that people who stop for pictures have been asked firmly to keep moving -- it'll be interesting to see how a demonstration plays out.

robomartin 13y ago

The unfortunate reality today is that we are living in a country where you really have to be afraid of the consequences of exercising your Constitutional right of free speech and assembly. I never thought I'd have this thoughts in the US. Never. We often referred to banana republic dictatorships enslaving their people. Never in the US, right? Today you have to be afraid to stick your neck out because the government is watching and recording as much of your life as possible. And there's a likelihood they will use what they have on you to exercise their ability to take revenge against anything you say or do, legality and constitutionality be damned. What the IRS did to Tea Party groups is probably just the tip of a very large iceberg. The uncomfortable reality is that the only peaceful way to fix the problem is to expose yourself to the potential of government retaliation by, ironically, exercising your right to free speech and assembly. And so we have to participate in these demonstrations with full acceptance of the potential risks. Ultimately it will boil down to the political process. And that means really giving our reality some thought when it comes time to choose your representatives. If you are a hard-core Liberal it is time you wake up and realize the monster your party has created. They are intent in growing government and taking control over as much of your life as possible. Time to apply the same passion and energy you had in voting-in Obama to let him know that this has to stop. If you are a hard-core Republican and keep voting-in these religious assholes bent on world domination and delusional social control (gays, abortion, etc.). Wake up and think. You are just as guilty as Liberals of voting as a tribe rather than as an independent thinker. If you are a Libertarian, wake up and make sure other's understand why this is the best path forward for our country. Less government. Less intrusion. Less control. More freedom. THIS IS NOT THE COUNTRY WE WANT TO LEAVE TO OUR CHILDREN. Think about that for a moment. Don't be so fucking selfish. They, the government, politicians, agencies, work for us. They don't own us. I still believe we can fix this within the legal and political framework already in place. Next election be very careful about who you vote for. Don't fall pray to pandering. We need adults in the room who can fix problems and stop us form sliding into the abyss. The problems are tough and not everyone is going to get their freebies. Don't let them pander to your needs or to your group (religious, union, whatever) and buy your votes. Every fucked South American regime has a foundation in buying popular votes by pandering, giveaways and pitting the masses against intellectual or business leaders. If you want the US to be like them, continue voting like sheep. If you don't, let the ruling class know it. They work for us. They do not get to do as they please with our country. Think.

boi_v2 13y ago

Streets, there is no better place to protest and wake people up. We've got to fight this, the world can't keep going in this extremely dangerous direction.

trekky1700 13y ago

While we're at it, we should also stand up for the second amendment just for shits and giggles. Invite all the NRA guys over and we'll have a "protect the two hundred year old amendments that were created with no knowledge of future advances/changes in technology/society while keeping to a paranoid delusion that the government not only cares, but is obsessed with and watches the small unimportant happenings of our day-to-day lives" party. I'll bring the aluminum caps.

lukifer 13y ago
Obviously it's not about your day-to-day life. It's about the raw power that comes knowledge, especially when databased and cross-referenced in perpetuity. I'll even concede that these programs are being constructed out of genuine interest in public safety. But what happens when a malicious hacker breaks in? Or China? Or corrupt insiders start selling blackmail secrets to the highest bidder? Or the next Nixon is elected? The 4th exists for a reason, and privacy is only a secondary benefit. What really matters is preventing concentration of power. And if you don't think having access to a limitless database on everyone is dangerous, you need to read up on Sun Tzu.
- trekky1700 13y ago
  If a hacker wants it, will distributing it between Facebook, Microsoft, Google and Apple really stop them. It wouldn't stop me. With these sites we've been throwing this information out there for years telling ourselves it's secure, and when someone finally showed us all what we already knew, everyone started freaking out like this was news. We've been throwing paper airplanes off skyscrapers while yelling at people not to look at them for years. This isn't even someone looking, this is somewhere between someone grabbing all of the paper airplanes and putting them in a huge disorganized room full of trillions of other paper airplanes and someone being able to look at the paper airplane if they get permission from a third party that always says yes. Either way, do you trust Google, Apple and Facebook more with this than the government? What does happen in any of those worst case scenarios? The Chinese find out you like George Takei on Facebook and occasionally stock your ex? The next Nixon finds out you own an iPhone and have some great iCloud photos? Corrupt insiders try to blackmail you for secretly watching that One Direction music video on YouTube a few dozen times? I think more than anything I'm just pissy because what used to be a cool avenue for tech/startup news has become this weird, paranoid community obsessed with Big Brother watching them. Every day I feel more like I'm checking NRA news than Hacker News. It's really depressing.

Kiro 13y ago

I think this protest would get more international attention if it didn't focus on the amendments. In my country most people can't cite a single thing from our supreme law so we can't really relate to the obsession with the constitution.

wavefunction 13y ago
The 4th of July is the US celebration of independence from Great Britain. It is the celebration of the freedoms that many of our countrymen have fought and died for. The "4th" also refers to the 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America which holds that (any) People should be free in their papers and effects from unreasonable searches (spying) by their Government. We are taught that these are not rights granted by a god, or by consent, or by a monarch, but are rights inherent for all people whether they live in America or not. They are natural rights, like the right to happiness and to pursue your life without harming others. I am sorry if it seems like this is a very American-centric protest, but it is up to Americans to change our government for the better. We have too many of our fellow countrymen who misinterpret or disregard the Constitution, and it is up to us to remind them what so many great men and women died for.

gobengo 13y ago

Keeping the site up yesterday was the first project for http://sina.is/task-force/ http://sina.is/task-force/

Geee 13y ago

As a non-US person I couldn't care less about the US constitution, and this whole thing goes to show that Americans really don't care about us either. How about trying to honor just a little bit the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, specifically the Article 12?

xradionut 13y ago
We do care, it's just that we are cynical about real change that actually makes a difference for the populous at large. Any course of action won't have results or will have bad results.

donohoe 13y ago

I'm hoping to take the kids to this one - Union Square in NYC. On a separate note I have a browser extension that people run on the Facebook sight. It will be reminding people of NSA coverage through the July 4th and long weekend. Just a simple PSA

bendoernberg 13y ago
What a great idea!

anigbrowl 13y ago

I think what's needed is a 28th amendment that creates an explicit right to privacy. I think it's pointless to call for 'restoring' the fourth when in fact it does not work the way most people imagine and never has. Case in point: there's another thread today about the Post Office logging mail cover information for law enforcement, and people express surprise that this isn't a violation of the 4th amendment. Within 5 minutes of looking, I found an 1878 case (Ex parte Jackson) articulating the view that the contents of the mails are protected (and require a warrant to open) but that the exterior information is not. Perhaps it's because I'm not an American and learned what I know about American law by reading it cold rather than growing up within a web of assumptions about it, but it seems obvious to me that 4th amendment protections are actually fairly narrow, because it allows for all sorts of reasonable searches and seizures. The fact is that as Americans you don't have a proper constitutional guarantee of privacy. You have a half-assed one that was semi-invented by a liberal court in the 1960s in what even liberal legal scholars consider to be an embarrassing example of judicial overreach - and this is why the right wing in America has never been able to accept Roe v Wade. The US needs a proper and explicit right to privacy, not one that was discovered in the penumbrae of other amendments and which could easily be lost there again, and not one that is subject to first amendment attacks (the usual argument of junk/bulk mail senders).

mpyne 13y ago
And after we do that we still need to establish some kind of bilateral framework with the E.U. about what types of privacy non-USPERs will have.... somehow I don't see a 28th Amendment that explicitly gives the whole rest of the world the same strong privacy rights as Americans as being politically feasible, so there would still be that disparity.

yaddayadda 13y ago

I find it ironic that they are using Facebook[1] (among others) to protest the "... right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Facebook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Facebook

wavefunction 13y ago
The population of Facebook is exactly the sort of people that need this sort of outreach. It makes perfect sense to have a resource there, especially since some people's entire Internet usage centers only around Facebook.

bendoernberg 13y ago

You can also help the cause by putting the Internet Defense League's "For Freedom" code on your website http://members.internetdefenseleague.org/ http://members.internetdefenseleague.org/

jmhamel 13y ago

I know this is beside the point of the site, but I have to comment about how eye-catching the design is. Did you have any specific inspiration, or resources that I could read that you used for the design?

sinak 13y ago

A quick note that this new version of the site was designed and launched by the Rapid Internet Task Force [1] in response to a request from Rt4 yesterday. Thanks to everyone who's helped so far to make it! It's been really awe inspiring to have over 20 people come and figure out both server scaling and a new frontend for the site over the course of about 24 hours. We're working on new event pages at the moment: they should be online in the next couple of hours. If you're interested in helping with projects like this, sign up below. And please do call 1-STOP-323-NSA to tell Congress to stop surveillance. [1] http://sina.is/task-force http://sina.is/task-force

bobwaycott 13y ago
Just want to add that it's been both a lot of fun and a pleasure to work with everyone on this. Staying up till 7am was totally worth it.
- sinak 13y ago
  A big big props to bob, austin, alex, chris, brady, kriss, eli, beau, sahar, teddy, michael, BC, wyatt, ameen, cole, laurence and everyone else who's been involved.
  - IceyEC 13y ago
    Working with everybody on this has been a blast!
Hario 13y ago
Also quick note to point out that Sinak has been doing stellar work as a designer, backend engineer, and leader throughout this. Props to you for gathering us together, Sina.
- bobwaycott 13y ago
  Absolutely.
bendoernberg 13y ago

Helpful_Bunny 13y ago

You're all part of the show[1]. (Would You Kindly Remember Which Tech Teams Ran the Obama Campaign? And their connection to Reddit?) You have no idea how predatory you need to be to face Power down, and a sponsored Face Book / Reddit protest is not your friend. $100k donations - to whom? People forging careers in Social Media Shaping (or as us old timers like to call it, propaganda[2]) and so on? This is a serious warning (and I fully expect a ban, or "down votes" for this, given the political alignment of HN): you need to be hard, sharp, fast, ruthless and enjoy blood sports to get into this game. I suspect most of you are not: and the people "running" this campaign via Reddit / Face Book are really not your friends[3]. And since we are living in a time where a Face Book "threat" from a teenager can get you prison time, I'll merely give you a quotation from a science FICTION novel (not even a real political theorist, they're dangerous / now under the "banned" list in America): "The personal, as everyone’s so fucking fond of saying, is political. So if some idiot politician, some power player, tries to execute policies that harm you or those you care about, take it personally. Get angry. The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs, hardware and soft-. Only the little people suffer at the hands of Justice; the creatures of power slide from under it with a wink and a grin. If you want justice, you will have to claw it from them. Make it personal. Do as much damage as you can. Get your message across. That way, you stand a better chance of being taken seriously next time. Of being considered dangerous. And make no mistake about this: being taken seriously, being considered dangerous marks the difference - the only difference in their eyes - between players and little people. Players they will make deals with. Little people they liquidate. And time and again they cream your liquidation, your displacement, your torture and brutal execution with the ultimate insult that it’s just business, it’s politics, it’s the way of the world, it’s a tough life and that it’s nothing personal. Well, fuck them. Make it personal.” ~ Altered Carbon, Richard Morgan. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQEDojPZ7YI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQEDojPZ7YI [2]http://www.propagandatheory.com/history-of-propaganda/french-revolution/propaganda-of-the-french-revolution-satire-from-england http://www.propagandatheory.com/history-of-propaganda/french... [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4pIXQvxMeA&list=PLA62577633C7A7089 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4pIXQvxMeA&list=PLA62577633...

bendoernberg 13y ago
I'm co-organizing the NYC group, and I've been on the national conference calls for the past few days. Can't speak for others, but I'd be happy to sit down with you or anyone else and talk about what we're doing, what the goals are, and assure you that I'm not a shadowy social media shaper.

tokenadult 13y ago

I looked it up, and see that my family could conveniently participate in one of the Restore the Fourth protests. So I just talked to my wife about it, and that is our plan for celebrating the Fourth of July ("Independence Day" is the holiday's official name) this year. What could be more American as a way to celebrate America than to participate in a public protest? By the way, our friends in Taiwan, which now enjoys freedom of the press after people power pushed out a dicatorial regime, have produced one of those funny animated news videos http://youtu.be/hjItu4SchJU http://youtu.be/hjItu4SchJU urging viewers to participate in the Restore the Fourth protests. This is why I am glad I participated in Taiwan's democracy movement[1], and why I continue to support China's democracy movement. What goes around comes around. Democracy can never have too many friends. Freedom is something for all of humankind to share and to defend and to cherish. [1] The dictatorship in power in Taiwan when I first lived there eventually fell, after a largely peaceful people power revolution that forced a transformation to an open political system. In the years leading up to that transformation, people I know personally were imprisoned for leading peaceful protests urging free and fair elections and a stop to censorship. (For example, the father of one of my wife's high school classmates was in prison while they were in high school. The classmate is now the godmother of my son who was born in Taiwan.) Most people don't have the courage to go to prison--especially prisons like those in Taiwan at the time. But courage is what it takes to undermine a dictatorship. A successful movement for greater freedom requires great courage, and a degree of social trust among the movement participants that is not easy to find. Allow me to repeat advice I have shared here on Hacker News before. If you really want to be an idealistic but hard-headed freedom-fighter, mobilizing an effective popular movement for more freedom wherever you live, I suggest you read deeply in the free, downloadable publications of the Albert Einstein Institution, http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html http://www.aeinstein.org/organizationsde07.html remembering that the transition from dictatorship to democracy described in those publications is an actual historical process with recent examples around the world that we can all learn from. You can find publications in Arabic, Azeri, Belarusian, Burmese, Burma (Chin), Burma (Jing-paw), Burma (Karen), Burma (Mon), Chinese (Mandarin), Dutch, English, Estonian, Farsi, French, German, Hebrew, Indonesian, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Kyrgyz, Latvian, Lithuanian, Macedonian, Norwegian, Portuguese, Russian, Serbian, Spanish, Thai, Tibetan, and Ukrainian there to share with your friends around the world.

ndesaulniers 13y ago

Did hearing the President say "I think it’s important to recognize that you can’t have 100 per cent security and also then have 100 per cent privacy and zero inconvenience" bum you out? Would you like the NSA to go back to the drawing board on providing security and privacy? Are you ashamed that people around the world have lost trust in American institutions, particularly businesses with online presence? Do you wish the greater American population better understood what liberties they are giving up to stop the seemingly unending, spreading threat of terrorism? Join us, this 4th of July! The Restore the Fourth movement is holding a peaceful protest in San Francisco. We plan to meet at UN Plaza at 11. Bring water and patriotism. Hopefully together we can raise awareness for the issue. Feel free to contact me, I'm sure I forgot a bunch of stuff. See you on the streets!

dllthomas 13y ago

The SF event was fantastic, and I am proud to have been a part. Even in the face of the BART strike, we had a reasonable turnout. One thing that was going through my head during the march: much ado has been made about Obama's statement that "you can't have 100% security and also have 100% privacy." I think it deserves rebuttal, but a more careful one than a simple statement that it is false. It is not false; if Obama had stopped before the "and" it would have still been true: you can't have 100% security. What bothers me about it is that it ignores the fact that liberty itself - while valuable in its own right - is also an essential part of security against some threats. It is also unreasonable that "there are tradeoffs" be used as an excuse to avoid discussion of whether the decisions being made are appropriate.