5 ms·

A Textbook Example of What’s Wrong with Education

119 points by jasonlbaptiste 18y ago

jasonlbaptiste 18y ago
I submitted this article because it's A) interesting b) I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts here on what's wrong with the textbook industry + how to innovate or fix it.
- tokenadult 18y ago
  Give families the power to shop by funding learners rather than schools. This is already done in the Netherlands, by per-capita enrollment payments to schools and a system of general funding to all schools, even those with religious affiliation or affiliation with a particular educational philosophy (e.g., Montessori or Waldorf). The Dutch school system gets better results for less money than the United States school system. In the United States, some cities have tried experiments with voucher plans, which again allow families to shop for schools, and generally deliver better results at the same cost or the same results at less cost compared to the current system of local oligopoly school systems. If learners can shop, textbooks don't have captive markets, and better textbooks will gain market share. (My basis for knowledge for this last statement is that as a homeschooling parent, I can and do buy textbooks that are MUCH superior to anything on offer in my friendly local public school system.)
  - dangoldin 18y ago
    I think it would be enlightening if you could provide the textbooks you buy. How big is the selection for textbooks for a certain subject/level. Are there a lot of smaller, independent publishers?
    - tokenadult 18y ago
      I think it would be enlightening if you could provide the textbooks you buy. Interpreting that as a request to name the textbooks I find useful, I'll do that here. Elementary mathematics: Primary Mathematics http://www.singaporemath.com/Primary_Math_s/21.htm http://www.singaporemath.com/Primary_Math_s/21.htm and Miquon Math http://www.keypress.com/x6252.xml http://www.keypress.com/x6252.xml Secondary mathematics: The Gelfand Correspondence Program series http://www.amazon.com/Algebra-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817636773 http://www.amazon.com/Algebra-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817636773 http://www.amazon.com/Functions-Graphs-Dover-Books-Mathematics/dp/0486425649/ http://www.amazon.com/Functions-Graphs-Dover-Books-Mathemati... http://www.amazon.com/Method-Coordinates-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817635335/ http://www.amazon.com/Method-Coordinates-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817... http://www.amazon.com/Trigonometry-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817639144/ http://www.amazon.com/Trigonometry-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817639144... http://www.amazon.com/Sequences-Combinations-Limits-Library-Mathematics/dp/0486425665/ http://www.amazon.com/Sequences-Combinations-Limits-Library-... and Basic Mathematics by Serge Lang http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Mathematics-Serge-Lang/dp/0387967877/ http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Mathematics-Serge-Lang/dp/038796... and The Art of Problem Solving expanded series http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_Texts_FAQ.php http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_Texts_FAQ.ph... When a student has those materials well in hand, it is time to work on AMC and Olympiad style problem solving, http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_CP_AMC.php http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_CP_AMC.php http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_CP_Olympiad.php http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_CP_Olympiad.... and also the best calculus textbooks, such as those by Spivak or Apostol. http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Michael-Spivak/dp/0914098918/ http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Michael-Spivak/dp/0914098918/ http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Vol-One-Variable-Introduction-Algebra/dp/0471000051/ http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Vol-One-Variable-Introduction... http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Vol-Multi-Variable-Algebra-Applications/dp/0471000078/ http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Vol-Multi-Variable-Algebra-Ap... Elementary reading: By far the best initial reading text is Let's Read: A Linguistic Approach http://www.amazon.com/Lets-Linguistic-Approach-Leonard-Bloomfield/dp/0814311156/ http://www.amazon.com/Lets-Linguistic-Approach-Leonard-Bloom... but there are many other good reading series, including Primary Phonics http://www.epsbooks.com/dynamic/catalog/series.asp?seriesonly=357m http://www.epsbooks.com/dynamic/catalog/series.asp?seriesonl... and Teach Your Child to Read in Ten Minutes a Day (I devote more time than that to reading instruction, typically, because I use multiple materials) http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Your-Child-Read-Minutes/dp/1412015545/ http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Your-Child-Read-Minutes/dp/14120... and quite a few others. There is more junk than good stuff among elementary reading materials, alas.
  - gustavo_duarte 18y ago
    Exactly. Ultimately the problem here is extreme centralization. I don't think something as subtle, elusive, and personal as education can be done well via an enormous bureaucracy. The plague of blandness, lack of inspiration and least-common-denominator material extends well beyond textbooks. I think what you describe is the real solution, rather than a point fix for textbooks.
  - dhimes 18y ago
    per-capita enrollment payments to schools and a system of general funding to all schools Isn't that what's done here in the states? I know the charter system caused huge political fights here in Massachusetts because, after being given a few years to get established, they began taking money from the "regular" public schools on a per-student-enrolled basis. Many of those charter schools were consistently posting state test results that surpassed the "regular" public schools' by a wide margin. We later learned that at least some of those charter schools were exercising their freedom to kick out students for whom they felt the experiment wasn't working by return to the mainstream schools the ones who weren't doing well on their exam preparation. So, at least here, there is an ugly side too. It is unfortunate, because the ability to experiment and determine what works the best is something we're capable of doing in the US (it's so huge). Within a reasonably short time we could probably come up with a pretty good system. I am still a fan of the charter experiment, by the way, I just have to be careful judging the evidence that I see.
    - tokenadult 18y ago
      No state in the United States has the pervasive freedom to form new schools and immediately obtain equal funding that one finds in the Netherlands. http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED316478&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED316478 http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordD...
      - dhimes 18y ago
        Thanks for the link, but I'll note here that it's from 1989.
        tokenadult 18y ago
        The constitutional system of school finance in the Netherlands is more than a century old.
        dhimes 18y ago
  - Chocobean 18y ago
    Tokenadult, I've noticed your comments with regards to education and homeschooling for a while. I don't have any children yet, but they will certainly be home-schooled to the best of my abilities. Could I possibly correspond with you and ask you for some much appreciated advice? chocobean AT gmail.com
- dhimes 18y ago
  I think the ultimate problem with the textbook industry is that the quality of teachers varies quite a lot and the screening process for ensuring teacher quality is, from the textbook publishers' point of view, unreliable. The textbooks are the teachers' tools and as such have to strive to be idiot-proof, because they will certainly be blamed for any shortcomings that arise[1]. Combine this with the fact that, if I read the author correctly, they are essentially in a winner-take-all game. The solution as I see it is to work to ensure that all teachers have access to the best practices of education in their particular specialty. A huge obtacle exists, though: There is so much faddishness that it's preposterous, and these fads can attain the status of canon law among their followers (it happens in every field). They start as instruction designed by people who have the insight and talent to correct a bad classroom situation if things go wrong. But many of the people who use them do not. [1]There is another way to look at this: Many teachers rely on the publishers' textbooks (and ancillary material) as much as the students. They are not subject experts.
dantheman 18y ago
Here's a classic by Feynman on textbooks: http://www.textbookleague.org/103feyn.htm http://www.textbookleague.org/103feyn.htm
dangoldin 18y ago
This was an interesting read - thanks for posting. It seems the problem is rooted in the fact that some states determine the textbooks used for each district and that combined with the consolidation in the industry leads to fewer textbooks being published that all look like one another. I think if districts had more control over the textbooks you'd see a lot more diversity in textbooks with districts choosing books based on what fit their needs most. I think the author has some good ideas but I doubt the big publishing houses will allow the system to change as they have too much vested in it. An out there idea may be to teach directly from Wikipedia (what the author calls the "core") and then have modules that build on top of that.
- jasonlbaptiste 18y ago
  Well, my thought is that there's room for a new type of textbook publisher. I think the textbook industry is on the cusp of a true innovator's dilemma. LOTS of different ways to innovate here, but it would be insanely difficult. Anything worth disrupting is though.
  - dangoldin 18y ago
    I agree. The market is huge and if you can break into it it would be great. It's just insanely difficult as you said. My approach would be to target the smaller districts that can choose for themselves and focus on supplementary materials. After that I'd work my way up to the "core." It just seems that when a state is making such a decision, it's difficult to compete as the little guy. The other publishers have a lot more money behind them and a probable lobbying effort. You need parents to start reading the textbooks that kids have in order for changes to happen - otherwise the textbooks will just appeal to the "average."
    - jasonlbaptiste 18y ago
      I wouldn't start with the k-12 sector at first. I'd start with areas where you can impact at a more individual level to build up momentum: - Non state colleges - Tutoring programs - Abroad - Home schooling
dhimes 18y ago
Fascinating and nauseating at the same time.
anigbrowl 18y ago
I would have called it an educational example of what's wrong with textbooks :-) Good link though, this is a serious issue. As a european I'm horrified by most of what I see about the American school system; conservatives and liberals both seem intent on wrecking it in different ways. Examples like this make me wonder if the purpose of k-12 isn't so much to educate as to act as an obstacle course for the less fortunate. I also wonder about the price of textbooks here. I'm more familiar with college than k-12 books, but the prices here are a major scam. In Europe I can walk into a bookshop and pay about $30 for an (American) book that sells for >$100 here. Over there the academic books are almost always cheaper than the 'introduction to learning X in 24 hours for complete dummies'. In fact, I ended up owning a bunch of textbooks on subjects that interested because they were the affordable option. The first time I went looking for a CS book here in the US I nearly had a heart attack. The problem is going to persist as long as education is a state matter but economics leads most states to play 'me-too' and go with whatever is selected in Texas. Kickbacks by academic publishers to selectors (which I hear sometimes takes place) should be prosecuted criminally. Textbooks should be certified by a panel of relevant academic associations, eg the AAAS or other well-established groups - not the 'Brand New Hisotrical Revisionism Society'. Those are just my superficial reactions, and not very good ones. I was uncomfortably reminded of programming books by this article. There's a lot of junk out there...makes me think of how many programming books are built around things like administering a payroll system, which coincidentally involves nothing more complex than arithmetic and the most primitive kind of database. If you're a self-study sorta person like me, it's a real pain in the ass for find good tutorial material.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
- Remake 18y ago
  IMHO Textbook based education is going to die. The next big thing - Game based education. Check out Quest 2 Learn School in NY
sethg 18y ago
I think this problem is connected to the "teacher-proof curriculum". School administrators don't trust teachers to actually make judgements based on their professional training and what's going on in their own classrooms, so they just hand them these kits that were chosen based on the buzzwords and slick marketing brochures. Of course this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the teachers who are best able to endure this kind of spoon-feeding are the ones who do not, in fact, have good judgement.
- tokenadult 18y ago
  That's one reason why the excellent Primary Mathematics Series developed in Singapore http://www.singaporemath.com/Primary_Math_s/21.htm http://www.singaporemath.com/Primary_Math_s/21.htm is not used in more United States schools. Even though there is a United States version of that series, most school districts that have considered adopting it have rejected it, as not having built-in scripted lessons for the teachers to present. I personally find it EXTREMELY easy and intuitive to teach lessons out of that series, to very good effect, but I'm not the kind of person who goes into elementary school teaching in a government-operated school in the United States. I do teach elementary-age pupils mathematics--that is my current occupation--but I teach them subjects that would be deemed "prealgebra" and "algebra" in terms of the United States curriculum.
  - dhimes 18y ago
    I understand that home-schoolers love it, though.
    - tokenadult 18y ago
      Really, any people who like math, homeschooling or "afterschooling," could use it with their own families to good effect. Another favorite math series I learned about from homeschoolers, which I use with my own children in combination with the Singapore Primary Mathematics series, is Miquon Math. http://www.keypress.com/x6252.xml http://www.keypress.com/x6252.xml It's a shame that lousy textbooks crowd good textbooks out of the market at present.
ckinnan 18y ago
Interesting fact that Texas, despite having lower taxes, spends more per child on public education than California.
- tc 18y ago
  Interesting fact that, despite spending more money on public schools every year, we get steadily declining results.
  - jauco 18y ago
    Do we? Who are we? And declining since when? And how much? (honest questions, though a tad sceptical)
    - tokenadult 18y ago
      http://www.aei.org/issue/20303 http://www.aei.org/issue/20303 This was easy to Google up. There are more recent figures.
    - tc 18y ago
      Who are we? I'm speaking to the US audience. Do we? Yes. I don't have rigorous data in front in me, but as a society we've become wealthier over, say, the last 60 years. In every community I've every been a part of, talked with others about, or reviewed data on, taxes for schools, as percentages of property values, income, or sales, have gone up. Greater wealth * higher tax percentages = more money/resources spent on schools. And declining since when? Though I'm skeptical of using test score data, the US results haven't been pretty from at least the 1970s onward. Anecdotally, however, this seems confirmed by consensus opinion. Education quality and loss of competitiveness of the median high school graduate relative to the rest of the world has been a continuing political issue for decades. And how much? There's no way for me or anyone to precisely quantify either part. As for your skepticism, I simply assumed that readers knowledgeable about modern US history could appreciate the truth of my point based on the weight of their own observations.
- lnguyen 18y ago
msluyter 18y ago
Like a lot of other folks here, I was vastly underchallenged in jr/high school. I always figured that if I ever had kids I'd do my best to home school them, and this article reinforces that desire.
- dhimes 18y ago
  I've observed that homeschooling is an excellent option, especially for kids in either tail of the "bell curve."
jasonlbaptiste 18y ago
Btw, if anyone's interested and passionate about this sector. Well, moreso the disruption of it, feel free to drop me an email: j@jasonlbaptiste.com . Would love to continue the conversation.
- gustavo_duarte 18y ago
  I have been spending my free time lately building what I hope will become a platform for collaboration on books and lengthier material. My immediate goal is to put out a free x86 internals / Linux kernel book, the embryo of which started as some blog posts. I'm very interested in the sector and disruption thereof. I'm dropping you a line, but if others are interested I'm at gustavo@duartes.org.
  - kalid 18y ago
    I'm also really interested in improving the state of education (I blog at http://betterexplained.com http://betterexplained.com). I'm dropping you both a line [Gustavo, I think our paths have crossed before :)], but anyone can ping me at kalid@instacalc.com.
  - asciilifeform 18y ago
    > x86 internals / Linux Why are you planning to inflict these two epic abominations on children? What have they done to you?
gregking 18y ago
I've designed my solution from a student's financial perspective. If you can build ideas with software and are passionate about this subject drop me a line. Rails only thanks. builderwanted@gmail.com
dinkumthinkum 18y ago
I'd like to see more Great Books based curricula.But there is an argument to be made that it would not work well in mass education. However, that's the road I prefer.
edw519 18y ago
So what's the problem? Sounds just like how enterprise software is written.
- mahmud 18y ago
  Children are not automated business processes. Textbooks should have character. We all have so many cherished technical, or otherwise, textbooks as adults that we refer to them by nicknames. College-level math students often refer to "baby Rudin", and it's a rite of passage for many a mathematician. Same with GH Hardy's "Pure Course", it's just "Hardy." Why can't all other subjects have authoritative texts written by experts of the field who have excellent exposition AND .. style? taste? personality?
  - Ardit20 18y ago
    Comparing college level with children seems bit much. Perhaps some children have nicknames for literature books, they are children they like tales. How exciting can maths be in grade 7!
    - mahmud 18y ago
      Mathematics is enjoyable at any grade, but to answer your question: I think "even" children's school books should be written with love. What the article above described was just sad.
    - gustavo_duarte 18y ago
      It can't be exciting at all because the kids are fed this bland Frankenstein crap soup we just read about. But it _could_ be exciting. Bertrand Russel said this is his autobiography: "At the age of eleven, I began Euclid, with my brother as my tutor. This was one of the great events of my life, as dazzling as first love. I had not imagined that there was anything so delicious in the world." Granted, maybe Russel is a little smarter than average, but we're denying that same pleasure to kids everywhere through mediocre books and education. Also, I think it is more important to have good books for kids, as when you're older you are better equipped to adjust for and handle crap books. Another issue is that we don't give kids anywhere the credit we should. One of my favorite things is to 'play math' with my kids on my whiteboard (8 and 5). We play with things like graph theory and other math concepts that they wouldn't normally see until later grades. It's simplified to be sure, but they get a kick out of exploring a graph and seeing simple results and puzzles.
asciilifeform 18y ago
Remember Paul Graham's "Things You Can't Say?" A lot of you here probably suspect what the real problem with education is. Everything else (such as the textbook issue) is merely a symptom of it. Hint: consider what country it appears to be almost entirely confined to, and exactly when it began. I'll leave it at that.
- eru 18y ago
  Not so fast. We also have (some) problems with education in Germany.
  - asciilifeform 18y ago
    There are some problems with education (and anything else) everywhere. But has your country arrived at anything like the American situation, where high school is worthless as a credential (e.g. does not guarantee basic literacy) and college is the new high school?
    - eru 18y ago
      We have a three-tiered system. After elementary school, you go to either Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. Hauptschule is essentially useless, and Realschule does not guarantee literacy. After graduating Gymnasium pupils are usually aged 19 years. And university can take another 6 years.
sown 18y ago
B-b-but it's a free market!!
- gustavo_duarte 18y ago
  It's not. It's grossly distorted by government interference, as explained in detail by the article.
  - dan_the_welder 18y ago
    More like lobbyist interference codified into law. You got corporate lobbyists, you got religious lobbyists, you got idealistic lobbyists. You got lots of laws. Could you start a text book company today? Grab the smartest grads from your local University to build a start up. Sell to the local district and grow from there? No you can't. Too may barriers to entry. Same problem in many other industries. Intellectual property laws and copyright are mainly benefiting the existing players. Why does everyone want to do internet startups? Because the barriers to entry are not fully locked down yet.
    - mseebach 18y ago
      The law is government interference.
      - dan_the_welder 18y ago
        Yes it is, but where did the laws come from? Did our elected representatives just wake up one day and say, "Let us make laws so byzantine, that the people will weep and wail and rend their hair in frustration!" Well maybe, but I think it's really the lobbyists using carrots (money) and sticks (fear o' God) on the government that got us into this boat.
        mseebach 18y ago
        > Yes it is, but where did the laws come from? From the government. What's wrong with government (including your carrots and sticks), it what's inherently wrong with democracy. There will always be benefits available to lawmakers who panders to those with money, and there will always be interest groups (religious, unions etc.) to punish those who don't pander to them. Yes, I'm a small government conservative, and I can almost infer that you're not, so let's just end the discussion here.
nazgulnarsil 18y ago
mass education is, by its nature, about teaching kids with IQ's of 100. There are many better ways to teach kids with IQ's of 85- and better ways to teach kids with IQ's of 115+. But because we're more concerned with the ideal of equality than concrete results we've made many avenues illegal.
- joetrumpet 18y ago
  Do you have examples that follow this model and perform higher? I believe East Asian countries, and Finland at the least in Europe, are very rigid and have success. I'm curious to see the opposite approach too.
  - nazgulnarsil 18y ago
    it depends on how you define success. you can achieve great results with a strict system if that system is oriented towards selecting the high performing students. This is what the tiered college system in the european socialist countries is according to what I've read. I think In america we're trying to have our cake and eat it too. We spend our time trying to make every student above average rather than orienting ourselves to the reality of education.
- dhimes 18y ago
  I don't know where your kids are in school, but in my kids' public school this is just not the case. There are special teachers for kids with low IQs (or whatever their performance metric is), and special classes for high achievers.
  - nazgulnarsil 18y ago
    there are special classes for kids with IQ's of 70 and AP classes for kids that show a bare minimum of ability. not much of a spectrum.
christopherolah 18y ago
I'm working on writing an open-source math textbook. You can find it at http://christopherolah.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/math1.pdf http://christopherolah.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/math1.pdf . I'd love any feedback. It is very much a work in progress, though development will be rather slow until June...
rfreytag 18y ago
I think textbooks might be like software. You don't build from scratch because you are throwing out the hard won debugging that has gone into it. Here is Joel Spolsky on this topic: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html The problem is that a lot of the 'bugs' are artifacts of the political sensitivities of various target market. The textbook business is only a reflection of the nauseating educational system and the disservice it does to our children.
v4us 18y ago
I think, that textbooks are "junk" knowlege products. It's good when you start to study something, but not when you have a big knowlege backpack. Think again.

119 points by jasonlbaptiste 18y ago

I submitted this article because it's A) interesting b) I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts here on what's wrong with the textbook industry + how to innovate or fix it.

tokenadult 18y ago
Give families the power to shop by funding learners rather than schools. This is already done in the Netherlands, by per-capita enrollment payments to schools and a system of general funding to all schools, even those with religious affiliation or affiliation with a particular educational philosophy (e.g., Montessori or Waldorf). The Dutch school system gets better results for less money than the United States school system. In the United States, some cities have tried experiments with voucher plans, which again allow families to shop for schools, and generally deliver better results at the same cost or the same results at less cost compared to the current system of local oligopoly school systems. If learners can shop, textbooks don't have captive markets, and better textbooks will gain market share. (My basis for knowledge for this last statement is that as a homeschooling parent, I can and do buy textbooks that are MUCH superior to anything on offer in my friendly local public school system.)
- dangoldin 18y ago
  I think it would be enlightening if you could provide the textbooks you buy. How big is the selection for textbooks for a certain subject/level. Are there a lot of smaller, independent publishers?
  - tokenadult 18y ago
    I think it would be enlightening if you could provide the textbooks you buy. Interpreting that as a request to name the textbooks I find useful, I'll do that here. Elementary mathematics: Primary Mathematics http://www.singaporemath.com/Primary_Math_s/21.htm http://www.singaporemath.com/Primary_Math_s/21.htm and Miquon Math http://www.keypress.com/x6252.xml http://www.keypress.com/x6252.xml Secondary mathematics: The Gelfand Correspondence Program series http://www.amazon.com/Algebra-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817636773 http://www.amazon.com/Algebra-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817636773 http://www.amazon.com/Functions-Graphs-Dover-Books-Mathematics/dp/0486425649/ http://www.amazon.com/Functions-Graphs-Dover-Books-Mathemati... http://www.amazon.com/Method-Coordinates-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817635335/ http://www.amazon.com/Method-Coordinates-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817... http://www.amazon.com/Trigonometry-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817639144/ http://www.amazon.com/Trigonometry-I-M-Gelfand/dp/0817639144... http://www.amazon.com/Sequences-Combinations-Limits-Library-Mathematics/dp/0486425665/ http://www.amazon.com/Sequences-Combinations-Limits-Library-... and Basic Mathematics by Serge Lang http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Mathematics-Serge-Lang/dp/0387967877/ http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Mathematics-Serge-Lang/dp/038796... and The Art of Problem Solving expanded series http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_Texts_FAQ.php http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_Texts_FAQ.ph... When a student has those materials well in hand, it is time to work on AMC and Olympiad style problem solving, http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_CP_AMC.php http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_CP_AMC.php http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_CP_Olympiad.php http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_CP_Olympiad.... and also the best calculus textbooks, such as those by Spivak or Apostol. http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Michael-Spivak/dp/0914098918/ http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Michael-Spivak/dp/0914098918/ http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Vol-One-Variable-Introduction-Algebra/dp/0471000051/ http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Vol-One-Variable-Introduction... http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Vol-Multi-Variable-Algebra-Applications/dp/0471000078/ http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Vol-Multi-Variable-Algebra-Ap... Elementary reading: By far the best initial reading text is Let's Read: A Linguistic Approach http://www.amazon.com/Lets-Linguistic-Approach-Leonard-Bloomfield/dp/0814311156/ http://www.amazon.com/Lets-Linguistic-Approach-Leonard-Bloom... but there are many other good reading series, including Primary Phonics http://www.epsbooks.com/dynamic/catalog/series.asp?seriesonly=357m http://www.epsbooks.com/dynamic/catalog/series.asp?seriesonl... and Teach Your Child to Read in Ten Minutes a Day (I devote more time than that to reading instruction, typically, because I use multiple materials) http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Your-Child-Read-Minutes/dp/1412015545/ http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Your-Child-Read-Minutes/dp/14120... and quite a few others. There is more junk than good stuff among elementary reading materials, alas.
- gustavo_duarte 18y ago
  Exactly. Ultimately the problem here is extreme centralization. I don't think something as subtle, elusive, and personal as education can be done well via an enormous bureaucracy. The plague of blandness, lack of inspiration and least-common-denominator material extends well beyond textbooks. I think what you describe is the real solution, rather than a point fix for textbooks.
- dhimes 18y ago
  per-capita enrollment payments to schools and a system of general funding to all schools Isn't that what's done here in the states? I know the charter system caused huge political fights here in Massachusetts because, after being given a few years to get established, they began taking money from the "regular" public schools on a per-student-enrolled basis. Many of those charter schools were consistently posting state test results that surpassed the "regular" public schools' by a wide margin. We later learned that at least some of those charter schools were exercising their freedom to kick out students for whom they felt the experiment wasn't working by return to the mainstream schools the ones who weren't doing well on their exam preparation. So, at least here, there is an ugly side too. It is unfortunate, because the ability to experiment and determine what works the best is something we're capable of doing in the US (it's so huge). Within a reasonably short time we could probably come up with a pretty good system. I am still a fan of the charter experiment, by the way, I just have to be careful judging the evidence that I see.
  - tokenadult 18y ago
    No state in the United States has the pervasive freedom to form new schools and immediately obtain equal funding that one finds in the Netherlands. http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED316478&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED316478 http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordD...
    - dhimes 18y ago
      Thanks for the link, but I'll note here that it's from 1989.
      - tokenadult 18y ago
        The constitutional system of school finance in the Netherlands is more than a century old.
        dhimes 18y ago
- Chocobean 18y ago
  Tokenadult, I've noticed your comments with regards to education and homeschooling for a while. I don't have any children yet, but they will certainly be home-schooled to the best of my abilities. Could I possibly correspond with you and ask you for some much appreciated advice? chocobean AT gmail.com
dhimes 18y ago
I think the ultimate problem with the textbook industry is that the quality of teachers varies quite a lot and the screening process for ensuring teacher quality is, from the textbook publishers' point of view, unreliable. The textbooks are the teachers' tools and as such have to strive to be idiot-proof, because they will certainly be blamed for any shortcomings that arise[1]. Combine this with the fact that, if I read the author correctly, they are essentially in a winner-take-all game. The solution as I see it is to work to ensure that all teachers have access to the best practices of education in their particular specialty. A huge obtacle exists, though: There is so much faddishness that it's preposterous, and these fads can attain the status of canon law among their followers (it happens in every field). They start as instruction designed by people who have the insight and talent to correct a bad classroom situation if things go wrong. But many of the people who use them do not. [1]There is another way to look at this: Many teachers rely on the publishers' textbooks (and ancillary material) as much as the students. They are not subject experts.

dantheman 18y ago

Here's a classic by Feynman on textbooks: http://www.textbookleague.org/103feyn.htm http://www.textbookleague.org/103feyn.htm

dangoldin 18y ago

This was an interesting read - thanks for posting. It seems the problem is rooted in the fact that some states determine the textbooks used for each district and that combined with the consolidation in the industry leads to fewer textbooks being published that all look like one another. I think if districts had more control over the textbooks you'd see a lot more diversity in textbooks with districts choosing books based on what fit their needs most. I think the author has some good ideas but I doubt the big publishing houses will allow the system to change as they have too much vested in it. An out there idea may be to teach directly from Wikipedia (what the author calls the "core") and then have modules that build on top of that.

jasonlbaptiste 18y ago
Well, my thought is that there's room for a new type of textbook publisher. I think the textbook industry is on the cusp of a true innovator's dilemma. LOTS of different ways to innovate here, but it would be insanely difficult. Anything worth disrupting is though.
- dangoldin 18y ago
  I agree. The market is huge and if you can break into it it would be great. It's just insanely difficult as you said. My approach would be to target the smaller districts that can choose for themselves and focus on supplementary materials. After that I'd work my way up to the "core." It just seems that when a state is making such a decision, it's difficult to compete as the little guy. The other publishers have a lot more money behind them and a probable lobbying effort. You need parents to start reading the textbooks that kids have in order for changes to happen - otherwise the textbooks will just appeal to the "average."
  - jasonlbaptiste 18y ago
    I wouldn't start with the k-12 sector at first. I'd start with areas where you can impact at a more individual level to build up momentum: - Non state colleges - Tutoring programs - Abroad - Home schooling

dhimes 18y ago

Fascinating and nauseating at the same time.

anigbrowl 18y ago

I would have called it an educational example of what's wrong with textbooks :-) Good link though, this is a serious issue. As a european I'm horrified by most of what I see about the American school system; conservatives and liberals both seem intent on wrecking it in different ways. Examples like this make me wonder if the purpose of k-12 isn't so much to educate as to act as an obstacle course for the less fortunate. I also wonder about the price of textbooks here. I'm more familiar with college than k-12 books, but the prices here are a major scam. In Europe I can walk into a bookshop and pay about $30 for an (American) book that sells for >$100 here. Over there the academic books are almost always cheaper than the 'introduction to learning X in 24 hours for complete dummies'. In fact, I ended up owning a bunch of textbooks on subjects that interested because they were the affordable option. The first time I went looking for a CS book here in the US I nearly had a heart attack. The problem is going to persist as long as education is a state matter but economics leads most states to play 'me-too' and go with whatever is selected in Texas. Kickbacks by academic publishers to selectors (which I hear sometimes takes place) should be prosecuted criminally. Textbooks should be certified by a panel of relevant academic associations, eg the AAAS or other well-established groups - not the 'Brand New Hisotrical Revisionism Society'. Those are just my superficial reactions, and not very good ones. I was uncomfortably reminded of programming books by this article. There's a lot of junk out there...makes me think of how many programming books are built around things like administering a payroll system, which coincidentally involves nothing more complex than arithmetic and the most primitive kind of database. If you're a self-study sorta person like me, it's a real pain in the ass for find good tutorial material.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
Remake 18y ago
IMHO Textbook based education is going to die. The next big thing - Game based education. Check out Quest 2 Learn School in NY

sethg 18y ago

I think this problem is connected to the "teacher-proof curriculum". School administrators don't trust teachers to actually make judgements based on their professional training and what's going on in their own classrooms, so they just hand them these kits that were chosen based on the buzzwords and slick marketing brochures. Of course this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the teachers who are best able to endure this kind of spoon-feeding are the ones who do not, in fact, have good judgement.

tokenadult 18y ago
That's one reason why the excellent Primary Mathematics Series developed in Singapore http://www.singaporemath.com/Primary_Math_s/21.htm http://www.singaporemath.com/Primary_Math_s/21.htm is not used in more United States schools. Even though there is a United States version of that series, most school districts that have considered adopting it have rejected it, as not having built-in scripted lessons for the teachers to present. I personally find it EXTREMELY easy and intuitive to teach lessons out of that series, to very good effect, but I'm not the kind of person who goes into elementary school teaching in a government-operated school in the United States. I do teach elementary-age pupils mathematics--that is my current occupation--but I teach them subjects that would be deemed "prealgebra" and "algebra" in terms of the United States curriculum.
- dhimes 18y ago
  I understand that home-schoolers love it, though.
  - tokenadult 18y ago
    Really, any people who like math, homeschooling or "afterschooling," could use it with their own families to good effect. Another favorite math series I learned about from homeschoolers, which I use with my own children in combination with the Singapore Primary Mathematics series, is Miquon Math. http://www.keypress.com/x6252.xml http://www.keypress.com/x6252.xml It's a shame that lousy textbooks crowd good textbooks out of the market at present.

ckinnan 18y ago

Interesting fact that Texas, despite having lower taxes, spends more per child on public education than California.

tc 18y ago
Interesting fact that, despite spending more money on public schools every year, we get steadily declining results.
- jauco 18y ago
  Do we? Who are we? And declining since when? And how much? (honest questions, though a tad sceptical)
  - tokenadult 18y ago
    http://www.aei.org/issue/20303 http://www.aei.org/issue/20303 This was easy to Google up. There are more recent figures.
  - tc 18y ago
    Who are we? I'm speaking to the US audience. Do we? Yes. I don't have rigorous data in front in me, but as a society we've become wealthier over, say, the last 60 years. In every community I've every been a part of, talked with others about, or reviewed data on, taxes for schools, as percentages of property values, income, or sales, have gone up. Greater wealth * higher tax percentages = more money/resources spent on schools. And declining since when? Though I'm skeptical of using test score data, the US results haven't been pretty from at least the 1970s onward. Anecdotally, however, this seems confirmed by consensus opinion. Education quality and loss of competitiveness of the median high school graduate relative to the rest of the world has been a continuing political issue for decades. And how much? There's no way for me or anyone to precisely quantify either part. As for your skepticism, I simply assumed that readers knowledgeable about modern US history could appreciate the truth of my point based on the weight of their own observations.
lnguyen 18y ago

msluyter 18y ago

Like a lot of other folks here, I was vastly underchallenged in jr/high school. I always figured that if I ever had kids I'd do my best to home school them, and this article reinforces that desire.

dhimes 18y ago
I've observed that homeschooling is an excellent option, especially for kids in either tail of the "bell curve."

jasonlbaptiste 18y ago

Btw, if anyone's interested and passionate about this sector. Well, moreso the disruption of it, feel free to drop me an email: j@jasonlbaptiste.com . Would love to continue the conversation.

gustavo_duarte 18y ago
I have been spending my free time lately building what I hope will become a platform for collaboration on books and lengthier material. My immediate goal is to put out a free x86 internals / Linux kernel book, the embryo of which started as some blog posts. I'm very interested in the sector and disruption thereof. I'm dropping you a line, but if others are interested I'm at gustavo@duartes.org.
- kalid 18y ago
  I'm also really interested in improving the state of education (I blog at http://betterexplained.com http://betterexplained.com). I'm dropping you both a line [Gustavo, I think our paths have crossed before :)], but anyone can ping me at kalid@instacalc.com.
- asciilifeform 18y ago
  > x86 internals / Linux Why are you planning to inflict these two epic abominations on children? What have they done to you?

gregking 18y ago

I've designed my solution from a student's financial perspective. If you can build ideas with software and are passionate about this subject drop me a line. Rails only thanks. builderwanted@gmail.com

dinkumthinkum 18y ago

I'd like to see more Great Books based curricula.But there is an argument to be made that it would not work well in mass education. However, that's the road I prefer.

edw519 18y ago

So what's the problem? Sounds just like how enterprise software is written.

mahmud 18y ago
Children are not automated business processes. Textbooks should have character. We all have so many cherished technical, or otherwise, textbooks as adults that we refer to them by nicknames. College-level math students often refer to "baby Rudin", and it's a rite of passage for many a mathematician. Same with GH Hardy's "Pure Course", it's just "Hardy." Why can't all other subjects have authoritative texts written by experts of the field who have excellent exposition AND .. style? taste? personality?
- Ardit20 18y ago
  Comparing college level with children seems bit much. Perhaps some children have nicknames for literature books, they are children they like tales. How exciting can maths be in grade 7!
  - mahmud 18y ago
    Mathematics is enjoyable at any grade, but to answer your question: I think "even" children's school books should be written with love. What the article above described was just sad.
  - gustavo_duarte 18y ago
    It can't be exciting at all because the kids are fed this bland Frankenstein crap soup we just read about. But it _could_ be exciting. Bertrand Russel said this is his autobiography: "At the age of eleven, I began Euclid, with my brother as my tutor. This was one of the great events of my life, as dazzling as first love. I had not imagined that there was anything so delicious in the world." Granted, maybe Russel is a little smarter than average, but we're denying that same pleasure to kids everywhere through mediocre books and education. Also, I think it is more important to have good books for kids, as when you're older you are better equipped to adjust for and handle crap books. Another issue is that we don't give kids anywhere the credit we should. One of my favorite things is to 'play math' with my kids on my whiteboard (8 and 5). We play with things like graph theory and other math concepts that they wouldn't normally see until later grades. It's simplified to be sure, but they get a kick out of exploring a graph and seeing simple results and puzzles.

asciilifeform 18y ago

Remember Paul Graham's "Things You Can't Say?" A lot of you here probably suspect what the real problem with education is. Everything else (such as the textbook issue) is merely a symptom of it. Hint: consider what country it appears to be almost entirely confined to, and exactly when it began. I'll leave it at that.

eru 18y ago
Not so fast. We also have (some) problems with education in Germany.
- asciilifeform 18y ago
  There are some problems with education (and anything else) everywhere. But has your country arrived at anything like the American situation, where high school is worthless as a credential (e.g. does not guarantee basic literacy) and college is the new high school?
  - eru 18y ago
    We have a three-tiered system. After elementary school, you go to either Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. Hauptschule is essentially useless, and Realschule does not guarantee literacy. After graduating Gymnasium pupils are usually aged 19 years. And university can take another 6 years.

sown 18y ago

B-b-but it's a free market!!

gustavo_duarte 18y ago
It's not. It's grossly distorted by government interference, as explained in detail by the article.
- dan_the_welder 18y ago
  More like lobbyist interference codified into law. You got corporate lobbyists, you got religious lobbyists, you got idealistic lobbyists. You got lots of laws. Could you start a text book company today? Grab the smartest grads from your local University to build a start up. Sell to the local district and grow from there? No you can't. Too may barriers to entry. Same problem in many other industries. Intellectual property laws and copyright are mainly benefiting the existing players. Why does everyone want to do internet startups? Because the barriers to entry are not fully locked down yet.
  - mseebach 18y ago
    The law is government interference.
    - dan_the_welder 18y ago
      Yes it is, but where did the laws come from? Did our elected representatives just wake up one day and say, "Let us make laws so byzantine, that the people will weep and wail and rend their hair in frustration!" Well maybe, but I think it's really the lobbyists using carrots (money) and sticks (fear o' God) on the government that got us into this boat.
      - mseebach 18y ago
        > Yes it is, but where did the laws come from? From the government. What's wrong with government (including your carrots and sticks), it what's inherently wrong with democracy. There will always be benefits available to lawmakers who panders to those with money, and there will always be interest groups (religious, unions etc.) to punish those who don't pander to them. Yes, I'm a small government conservative, and I can almost infer that you're not, so let's just end the discussion here.

nazgulnarsil 18y ago

mass education is, by its nature, about teaching kids with IQ's of 100. There are many better ways to teach kids with IQ's of 85- and better ways to teach kids with IQ's of 115+. But because we're more concerned with the ideal of equality than concrete results we've made many avenues illegal.

joetrumpet 18y ago
Do you have examples that follow this model and perform higher? I believe East Asian countries, and Finland at the least in Europe, are very rigid and have success. I'm curious to see the opposite approach too.
- nazgulnarsil 18y ago
  it depends on how you define success. you can achieve great results with a strict system if that system is oriented towards selecting the high performing students. This is what the tiered college system in the european socialist countries is according to what I've read. I think In america we're trying to have our cake and eat it too. We spend our time trying to make every student above average rather than orienting ourselves to the reality of education.
dhimes 18y ago
I don't know where your kids are in school, but in my kids' public school this is just not the case. There are special teachers for kids with low IQs (or whatever their performance metric is), and special classes for high achievers.
- nazgulnarsil 18y ago
  there are special classes for kids with IQ's of 70 and AP classes for kids that show a bare minimum of ability. not much of a spectrum.

christopherolah 18y ago

I'm working on writing an open-source math textbook. You can find it at http://christopherolah.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/math1.pdf http://christopherolah.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/math1.pdf . I'd love any feedback. It is very much a work in progress, though development will be rather slow until June...

rfreytag 18y ago

I think textbooks might be like software. You don't build from scratch because you are throwing out the hard won debugging that has gone into it. Here is Joel Spolsky on this topic: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html The problem is that a lot of the 'bugs' are artifacts of the political sensitivities of various target market. The textbook business is only a reflection of the nauseating educational system and the disservice it does to our children.

v4us 18y ago

I think, that textbooks are "junk" knowlege products. It's good when you start to study something, but not when you have a big knowlege backpack. Think again.