4 ms·

I say block all US services in EU. It will be inconvenient as hell and incredibly annoying but it will give European companies a chance to fill the void. And y

by Fuxy 13y ago

I say block all US services in EU. It will be inconvenient as hell and incredibly annoying but it will give European companies a chance to fill the void. And yes I know it can be bypassed but jumping through hoops is always annoying and if European alternatives show up people would be less likely to bother. I would do it just to see what happens :)

gst 13y ago
Censorship is always the solution. Because the user does not know what he wants. Is this what you want to say?
- Fuxy 13y ago
  Face it there is already censorship and people pretending its for a noble cause like to prevent piracy or child porn or whatever I'm just taking it to its logical next step. Protecting your countries users from foreign spying. Edit: I'm not saying its right but if we're already doing the wrong thing why not make it entertaining and beneficial to local business.
  - mc32 13y ago
    So you're saying if other countries' data traffic did not pass through the US the US would be unable to set-up some shop over there to syphon data? And A US company could not be allowed to buy an EU company? It's all shortsighted and all these 'measures' could be overcome, if there's incentive for it.
    - Fuxy 13y ago
      I would love to see the US try to set up shop in the EU in order to spy on its citizens. Now that would be an entertaining international incident. A US company not being able to buy a EU company is an interesting side effect that may promote diversity and innovation. Have you heard of speciation? Also everything can be overcome however it would make it considerably more difficult for the US to conduct mass surveillance on EU citizens.
      - mc32 13y ago
        You don't have to hope for it. It already happens. Companies spy on each other sometimes with the help of intelligence services[1]. When CN or RU or the US or DE, etc. set up shop, they don't officially announce it. And if the EU decided to embargo US services, there would be more incentive to do this kind of espionage. But it's all moot. Most, if not all secret intelligence services share at least some data with each other. It's to each other's benefit. It makes each other's jobs easier and it helps them circumvent laws technically forbidding them from directly spying on their own citizens. The US does not really care to surveil EU citizens, so much as the EU prefers the US do their dirty work for them (and vice versa). That's separate from intelligence gathering and industrial espionage but they all have these mutual understandings. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage
      - dragonwriter 13y ago
        > I would love to see the US try to set up shop in the EU in order to spy on its citizens. I think that the usual practice with foreign intelligence services setting up shop in target countries is to avoid being seen. OTOH, if you don't think an agency specifically chartered to gather foreign signals intelligence which is recently the subject of controversy for allegedly exceeding its mandate by its conduct of secret domestic signals intelligence gathering is somehow timid about doing the thing it is specifically chartered to do, I'd be interested in hearing why.
        Fuxy 13y ago
        Ok lets assume you're right and the US manages to splice into fiber optic cables in the country they target and for some absurd reason no human being ever checks the fiber optic cables which are easily accessible over land how would they send all that data back for processing? Or if they do it locally how the hell do they get all that equipment in without being noticed? When you're doing surveillance in a foreign country you can't be extravagant you have to choose your targets carefully. I'm against mass surveillance for the hell of it I know there will always be a certain degree of surveillance i just want them out of average peoples lives they have no business being there.
muyuu 13y ago
I think a forced warning that your data is going to be held in US servers would work. Similar to the cookie warning that is compulsory here in the UK - otherwise your site risks getting blocked.
krapp 13y ago
No, the only real solution is for the EU to come up with its own proprietary replacement for the internet. Replace everything from HTML up to HTTP with closed source software built by EU governments. Remove any server or computer hardware either built in the US or built by a company that also services the US, and replace them with systems built in the EU. And since you can't trust American IT workers not to be NSA moles they'll have to expel all of them, revoke American visas and bar Americans from entry into any EU nation. Only then will Europe be truly free.
- Fuxy 13y ago
  I personally love interoperability and open standards I never said we have to reinvent the wheel but if part of the wheel is broken (like the US spying on us) we need to replace it.
  - krapp 13y ago
    Yes but you can't fix a wheel by cutting the axle. Not every US company is engaged in spying, and the US has ways of spying that go beyond web services. Also, the precedent this would set in terms of politicizing global access to the internet, to me, would be no less egregious than what the US is doing. How long, after that, does every disagreement between nations result in wars of packet-dropping or malicious routing? That said, something a bit less drastic might well do some good for the world. Instead of blocking everything, block google and facebook for a day, just to show they can and they're serious. Or even just threaten to. Anything that causes the powerful companies that American politicians actually listen to to maybe lose money might lead to some real action.
    - Fuxy 13y ago
      I think you're overestimating the US's role on the internet. Look at china they seem to be doing ok although their reasons are completely the wrong ones for doing it. Yes a blockade for a couple of days would be a good idea however I'm afraid Europeans are being underestimated by the US so if we don't have the determination to stick to it it's not worth doing.
danmaz74 13y ago
Yes, I'm sure that an economic war is what we need right now.

by Fuxy 13y ago

gst 13y ago

Censorship is always the solution. Because the user does not know what he wants. Is this what you want to say?

Fuxy 13y ago
Face it there is already censorship and people pretending its for a noble cause like to prevent piracy or child porn or whatever I'm just taking it to its logical next step. Protecting your countries users from foreign spying. Edit: I'm not saying its right but if we're already doing the wrong thing why not make it entertaining and beneficial to local business.
- mc32 13y ago
  So you're saying if other countries' data traffic did not pass through the US the US would be unable to set-up some shop over there to syphon data? And A US company could not be allowed to buy an EU company? It's all shortsighted and all these 'measures' could be overcome, if there's incentive for it.
  - Fuxy 13y ago
    I would love to see the US try to set up shop in the EU in order to spy on its citizens. Now that would be an entertaining international incident. A US company not being able to buy a EU company is an interesting side effect that may promote diversity and innovation. Have you heard of speciation? Also everything can be overcome however it would make it considerably more difficult for the US to conduct mass surveillance on EU citizens.
    - mc32 13y ago
      You don't have to hope for it. It already happens. Companies spy on each other sometimes with the help of intelligence services[1]. When CN or RU or the US or DE, etc. set up shop, they don't officially announce it. And if the EU decided to embargo US services, there would be more incentive to do this kind of espionage. But it's all moot. Most, if not all secret intelligence services share at least some data with each other. It's to each other's benefit. It makes each other's jobs easier and it helps them circumvent laws technically forbidding them from directly spying on their own citizens. The US does not really care to surveil EU citizens, so much as the EU prefers the US do their dirty work for them (and vice versa). That's separate from intelligence gathering and industrial espionage but they all have these mutual understandings. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > I would love to see the US try to set up shop in the EU in order to spy on its citizens. I think that the usual practice with foreign intelligence services setting up shop in target countries is to avoid being seen. OTOH, if you don't think an agency specifically chartered to gather foreign signals intelligence which is recently the subject of controversy for allegedly exceeding its mandate by its conduct of secret domestic signals intelligence gathering is somehow timid about doing the thing it is specifically chartered to do, I'd be interested in hearing why.
      - Fuxy 13y ago
        Ok lets assume you're right and the US manages to splice into fiber optic cables in the country they target and for some absurd reason no human being ever checks the fiber optic cables which are easily accessible over land how would they send all that data back for processing? Or if they do it locally how the hell do they get all that equipment in without being noticed? When you're doing surveillance in a foreign country you can't be extravagant you have to choose your targets carefully. I'm against mass surveillance for the hell of it I know there will always be a certain degree of surveillance i just want them out of average peoples lives they have no business being there.

muyuu 13y ago

I think a forced warning that your data is going to be held in US servers would work. Similar to the cookie warning that is compulsory here in the UK - otherwise your site risks getting blocked.

krapp 13y ago

No, the only real solution is for the EU to come up with its own proprietary replacement for the internet. Replace everything from HTML up to HTTP with closed source software built by EU governments. Remove any server or computer hardware either built in the US or built by a company that also services the US, and replace them with systems built in the EU. And since you can't trust American IT workers not to be NSA moles they'll have to expel all of them, revoke American visas and bar Americans from entry into any EU nation. Only then will Europe be truly free.

Fuxy 13y ago
I personally love interoperability and open standards I never said we have to reinvent the wheel but if part of the wheel is broken (like the US spying on us) we need to replace it.
- krapp 13y ago
  Yes but you can't fix a wheel by cutting the axle. Not every US company is engaged in spying, and the US has ways of spying that go beyond web services. Also, the precedent this would set in terms of politicizing global access to the internet, to me, would be no less egregious than what the US is doing. How long, after that, does every disagreement between nations result in wars of packet-dropping or malicious routing? That said, something a bit less drastic might well do some good for the world. Instead of blocking everything, block google and facebook for a day, just to show they can and they're serious. Or even just threaten to. Anything that causes the powerful companies that American politicians actually listen to to maybe lose money might lead to some real action.
  - Fuxy 13y ago
    I think you're overestimating the US's role on the internet. Look at china they seem to be doing ok although their reasons are completely the wrong ones for doing it. Yes a blockade for a couple of days would be a good idea however I'm afraid Europeans are being underestimated by the US so if we don't have the determination to stick to it it's not worth doing.

danmaz74 13y ago

Yes, I'm sure that an economic war is what we need right now.