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You don't have to ponder this much to see what kind of abuse of power this is. As a brief thought experiment, imagine a country trying to ground Air Force One (
by noarchy 13y ago
You don't have to ponder this much to see what kind of abuse of power this is. As a brief thought experiment, imagine a country trying to ground Air Force One (the US presidential plane), and then asking to search it. I'm thinking you'd see calls for war, from political pundits in the US.
- Svip 13y agoThe Spanish were denied to search the plane, for the record. Edit: I inaccurately wrote Austrians.
- tomp 13y agoReference? The article claims: > Morales refuted speculation that Snowden had stowed away on the plane and allowed authorities to conduct a search.
- bschwarz 13y agoThey did search the plane according to the foreign ministry's Twitter https://twitter.com/Minoritenplatz8/status/352321639108714496 https://twitter.com/Minoritenplatz8/status/35232163910871449...
- halviti 13y agoPlease at least read the article before you comment. They did indeed search the plane.
- smegel 13y agoYou mean they denied they searched the plane, or they tried to search the plane and were denied?
- Svip 13y agoI am not sure that makes sense anymore, considering that Spain is denying they ever denied the plane entry.[0] [0] http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23590259/snowden-france-denies-blocking-bolivian-plane http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23590259/snowden...
- JonnieCache 13y agoAustrian journalist tells me: Bolivia did not give permission to have Morales' plane searched, but airport policeman allowed to walk through — Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) 12:00 PM July 3, 2013 "Walk through?" If it turns out snowden was hiding in a cupboard millenium falcon style I might actually die laughing.
- Svip 13y agoTurns out my suspicion was right. But I had nothing at that point to confirm it. Still, Bolivia's story is slowly falling apart.
- sidcool 13y agoThere's only one equation in international politics, POWER. There's nothing wrong or right, there's only power.
- milfot 13y agothat doesn't make it right..
- sidcool 13y agoYou are right, that doesn't. But history won't remember that. History will consider the powerful and the victorious as right. There's no Karma checker.
- milfot 13y agoHistory may now be being written by different people than in previous eras. In oz, 100 years or so of pro British army brainwashing was undone with one line in one movie.. shoot straight, ya bastards. its not about karma. what is right resonates.
- flyinRyan 13y agoWhat movie was this? I'd like to hear more about this.
- shabble 13y agoAt a guess, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaker_Morant_%28film%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaker_Morant_%28film%29
- sidcool 13y agoThanks for your response. I humbly disagree with you though. There are many instances where heinous acts by the powerful have gone unpunished. Many of them by the US and Britain. They have had no repercussions on the perpetrators because of power.
- popee 13y agoBlame Canada?
- mark_integerdsv 13y agoYou know what's probably the worst part of all of this? It's at I'm afraid to say what I want to say about the topic online.
- kimlelly 13y agoAnd that's where RetroShare comes in: http://retroshare.sourceforge.net/ http://retroshare.sourceforge.net/ It's: 1. Decentralized (real p2p, no central servers) 2. Encrypted communication 3. I'd even add: Easier to set up than encrypted email: Install -> Exchange "certificates" -> Done. IMO, it's currently the best way to communicate.
- mark_integerdsv 13y agoThanks! Going to check this out.
- 300bps 13y agoThanks - I've been looking for something that would be similar to the BBS functionality I found very useful a couple decades ago. This looks like it does an even better job.
- maggit 13y agoI've recently started developing something like this. Now it looks like I might not have to. Thanks! I found RetroShare worthy of its own submission, given today's climate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5983913 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5983913
- PavlovsCat 13y agoI rather think that's where this comes in: When I was asked to make this address I wondered what I had to say to you boys who are graduating. And I think I have one thing to say. If you wish to be useful, never take a course that will silence you. Refuse to learn anything that implies collusion, whether it be a clerkship or a curacy, a legal fee or a post in a university. Retain the power of speech no matter what other power you may lose. If you can take this course, and in so far as you take it, you will bless this country. In so far as you depart from this course, you become dampers, mutes, and hooded executioners. -- John J. Chapman Retroshare is nice, but can't be used to talk in public as a member of the public with other members of the public. I mean, a few friends talking freely behind closed doors? Even dictatorships have that. Don't take this wrong, I know you meant to point out a cool program, and I'm not having a go at you or anyone seeking technical solutions for this.. but I think this is a social/political problem, and ultimately needs to be deal with as such, if we're ever to achieve anything real. If talking freely is risky, because we're still in the stone age in so many ways, then I want the risks, not to shut up.
- dhimes 13y agoIf I were Bolivia I would make it a point to give Snowden asylum now. Fuck this.
- vidarh 13y agoI'm kind of hoping that when they get the plane "home", it turns out he actually was in there, and they show him popping out of a cupboard on live TV.
- croisillon 13y agoMy thought exactly!
- crayola 13y agoWhile I think this is not impossible, I am not sure whether I wish for it to be the case, as it will, to some, justify the US & EU reaction. I would rather Snowden still was in Moscow, but found asylum swiftly in an EU nation.. Unlikely, but I think that would be the best outcome.
- antocv 13y agoAre you still dreaming? These EU nations, France Portugal Italy, you think they would ever give him asylum? Europe is the backwater of the world when it comes to freedom right now. These countries are puppets of US, no more no less than Manchuko was for Japan, Vichy France, Quisling/Norway for Hitler. If anything, behind the scenes they are running to lick ass of US, running against each other to bring Snowden to their big daddy first.
- croisillon 13y agoAnd in 30 years they can make a Hollywood movie about the operation...
- jneal 13y agoTotally what I was thinking. I feel like there should be huge protests about the NSA situation right now in the US but it's like no one cares, let's just move on with our daily lives and forget that everything we say and do is being listened to and watched.
- marvin 13y agoThis indifference of the "average Joe" is a major trait of totalitarianism. I never thought I would say this, and I'm actually afraid of saying it out loud because it sounds like hyperbole. But the way I see it, the USA is becoming a totalitarian state. It won't look like any previous totalitarian regime, but many of the hallmarks are there.
- bayesianhorse 13y agoEven if you exaggerate the known NSA spying by one or two orders of a magnitude, the US is nowhere near becoming a totalitarian state.
- ekianjo 13y agothe fact is that all the elements are there to make it into one. A huge government, a large military force, constant spying, a major disrespect for basic constitutional rights, and now it's just about how fast it slides.
- marvin 13y agoHere are some examples of the "hallmarks of totalitarianism" I see in the United States. Read it and tell me that this is nowhere near totalitarianism. Tell me: what exactly is missing, and how much? Indiscriminate spying and privacy violation. Selective execution of citizens with no trial or oversight. Secret courts. Gag orders for oversight initiatives. World record in incarceration. Lifetime prison sentences for non-violent offenses. Indefinite, extrajudicial detention of prisoners. Torture. The use of plea bargains to persuade a guilty plea. Use of paramilitary forces (SWAT teams) to apprehend non-violent suspects. Asset freezes, with the consequence of rendering a fair trial impossible. Systematic persecution of whistleblowers, even those who follow the "chain of command". Harsh limits on legal protests ("free speech zones"). Persecution of investigative journalists. Overtly propagandic statements in the news media (referring to, for instance, CNN's very particular use of language in the Snowden case).
- dageshi 13y agoIt's likely not really about Snowden anymore, it's about making an example of Snowden to dissuade any future whistle-blowers from doing what he did. So we can expect massively disproportionate actions like this. And you know what... that's great. Because you know what it does? It reinforces a sense that at the heart of the American government there's an intelligence community that's turned into a feral beast. A beast that seemingly can't be controlled by anyone we elect and it's wandering around the world pissing off people indiscriminately in its wild attempts to get Snowden back. Snowden has revealed the nature of the beast and the beast itself can't help but make things worse for itself. So with this latest escapade, they've thoroughly pissed off the South Americans, who will likely be absolutely furious with America, but even more so europe. The european populace is going to be scratching its head wondering why the hell they're denying flights into their airspace at the behest of people who apparently spend all their time spying on them? Seems like a complete and utter mess to me. The beast can't help itself, it's panicking, running around the world doing increasingly stupid and desperate things to get Snowden back. The beast has lost its anonymity, it's showing itself up by taking actions obviously not in the best interests of the USA but rather out of pure panic. It's making itself vulnerable.
- xradionut 13y ago"It's making itself vulnerable." It's not vulnerable, it's more dangerous. It's just that more people are finally see the men behind the curtains and realizing that they are just as petty and human as the rest of us, but have insane amounts of power. And are not willing to give up any of that power or even display any true global leadership or responsibility. Realize that "these people" have absolute power. And as time goes on, don't need as much as the population around to maintain their status or luxuries. What would you do in their place if faced with a angry populous?
- dageshi 13y agoNo, this morning they just look incompetent. When was the last time you ever heard of any presidential plane ever being stopped and searched in transit through a foreign airport? Or passage through airspace being denied? I can't remember it ever happening. Dictators can fly around the world with impunity but they'll contrive to ground the plane of a democratically elected president and search it, for some guy who published a bunch of powerpoint presentations? And they did all this... with all the consequences it's going to have and they didn't even get Snowden!
- lke 13y agoIt seems to me that as far as international rules go it's not an "abuse" of power. National airspace is, after all, national. You can refuse entery to a foreign president if you damn well please. (High ranking official have a very limited liberty of movment since every deplacment abroad is subject to authorisation of the receiving country.) On the other hand once you have authorising them to cross your airspace usually grants them extra-territoriality. Meaning that for an reglementary standpoint you can't force a plane to land and search it. (No suspending authorisation once the plane is in the airspace, and you can't search the plane because it is considered foreign territory. (note this is what i understand of this matter, and may not be exact)
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- bbissoon 13y agoI hate this happened, it's a black eye to those who hold this country to a high standard and love it. However, if you know you have to travel through various allies of your enemy - don't let your plans be known if it undermines their agenda. You WILL be a target. There's a line you have to draw between keeping it real and getting it done. What's going on a gross misuse of power - but President Evo knew who he was going against when he publicly made note that he would consider Edwards asylum application.
- malandrew 13y agoAn interesting through experiment is to imagine if one day Air Force One were on its way to Argentina and just before it reached the continent, every country in Latin American denied it entry as in collective show of solidarity.
- ebrenes 13y agoGiven the resources available to the US they'd probably just have a fuel carrier divert its route and do an inflight refueling, an operation which Air Force One is very capable of.