4 ms·

I would add a corollary: the lack of future reward is the root cause of the outright failure of socialism/communism. No matter what you do, in an utopian commun

I would add a corollary: the lack of future reward is the root cause of the outright failure of socialism/communism. No matter what you do, in an utopian communism you'd get only what you need. The wealth you could create has no return. Obviously, in the end everyone will be equal, equally improductive. Equally poor.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
When was either of those ever implemented? How much do you even know about the theory to start with, if you talk about "utopian communism" as if you read Marx back to back? Or are trigger words like "Stalin" and "East block countries" enough to make you enter and stay in the back of just any old van? I wish people at least spoke for themselves. Because know of a lot of examples where I went above and beyond simply because I felt good about the work and enjoyed finding out about and increasing my potential. I can work hard in a cancer ward for lodging and meals and love it; but you could hardly pay me enough to sell people something they don't need, or that actually hurts them. I know I'm not alone with that either, I am in awesome, priceless company. Ever watched horses in the wild? Or dogs play? They exert themselves because they can. Those who need to be forced or tricked are sick. Then there is also this: "The trouble with the rat race is, even if you win it, you're still a rat." (Lily Tomlin) Capitalism doesn't solve anything, it just shifts the problem out of the range of short-sighted people. Even those often feel it subconsciously, and cannot hide their confusion and despair trickling through the cracks of the facade. This article essentially points out that humans have defensive strategies in situations of uncertainty and distrust. The suggested reaction is not to reflect on what causes them, where they might be justified and where they might not -- but simply assumes as given that "life isn't fair" and that it would help to better deceive people into thinking it was. I'm making another connection to marshmallows here: "white and spineless, without any traces of intellectual honesty". Problem: People don't trust Facebook and are less engaged because they either feel it's just a thinly veiled mechanism to shove them into marketing segements, or because they're uncomfortable with the cooperation with snoops. Solution: PR campaign. Yeah, Facebook is "just a company", and "needs" to make money at whatever cost, so all of this and worse would be to expected in utopian capitalism, but Skinner showed us ways around that. Instead of, you know, having a decent society, this article is about the tools we are supposed to use in broken one. It's sweet, but no thanks, because it just sticks between the teeth and makes you fat. Can't think well with a fat brain.
caf 13y ago
Against this analysis, however, is the empirical fact that plenty of people did work hard and take risks under Communism - the Soviet space program is one obvious example. It seems that in practice, a reward does not need to be an economic return in order to be an incentive. There are other kinds of rewards: eg awards, prizes, or honours. Most militaries use rewards of this kind.
furyg3 13y ago
I disagree on one point... 'socialism'. If you agree with the premise of the article, social agreements which can be trusted are vital when an individual is deciding to take risks. One side of this is ensuring rewards for successful risk-taking. A 100% 'tax' as you describe in utopian communism, or widespread corruption, or a bad legal system, etc, all redue the possibility of seeing possible rewards. The other side of the coin is risk limiting. Healthcare, retirement, children's education, bankruptcy protections, unemployment, etc, all affect risk-taking decisions in a similar way. 'Socialist' protections can thus strengthen capitalistic behavior.
flyinRyan 13y ago
Hacker news isn't for politics so please keep your horrible political ignorance off of here. You don't appear to have any clue what you're talking about and probably don't understand most of the terms you used. There's no point in discussing it, just please don't do it here anymore.

PavlovsCat 13y ago

When was either of those ever implemented? How much do you even know about the theory to start with, if you talk about "utopian communism" as if you read Marx back to back? Or are trigger words like "Stalin" and "East block countries" enough to make you enter and stay in the back of just any old van? I wish people at least spoke for themselves. Because know of a lot of examples where I went above and beyond simply because I felt good about the work and enjoyed finding out about and increasing my potential. I can work hard in a cancer ward for lodging and meals and love it; but you could hardly pay me enough to sell people something they don't need, or that actually hurts them. I know I'm not alone with that either, I am in awesome, priceless company. Ever watched horses in the wild? Or dogs play? They exert themselves because they can. Those who need to be forced or tricked are sick. Then there is also this: "The trouble with the rat race is, even if you win it, you're still a rat." (Lily Tomlin) Capitalism doesn't solve anything, it just shifts the problem out of the range of short-sighted people. Even those often feel it subconsciously, and cannot hide their confusion and despair trickling through the cracks of the facade. This article essentially points out that humans have defensive strategies in situations of uncertainty and distrust. The suggested reaction is not to reflect on what causes them, where they might be justified and where they might not -- but simply assumes as given that "life isn't fair" and that it would help to better deceive people into thinking it was. I'm making another connection to marshmallows here: "white and spineless, without any traces of intellectual honesty". Problem: People don't trust Facebook and are less engaged because they either feel it's just a thinly veiled mechanism to shove them into marketing segements, or because they're uncomfortable with the cooperation with snoops. Solution: PR campaign. Yeah, Facebook is "just a company", and "needs" to make money at whatever cost, so all of this and worse would be to expected in utopian capitalism, but Skinner showed us ways around that. Instead of, you know, having a decent society, this article is about the tools we are supposed to use in broken one. It's sweet, but no thanks, because it just sticks between the teeth and makes you fat. Can't think well with a fat brain.

caf 13y ago

Against this analysis, however, is the empirical fact that plenty of people did work hard and take risks under Communism - the Soviet space program is one obvious example. It seems that in practice, a reward does not need to be an economic return in order to be an incentive. There are other kinds of rewards: eg awards, prizes, or honours. Most militaries use rewards of this kind.

furyg3 13y ago

I disagree on one point... 'socialism'. If you agree with the premise of the article, social agreements which can be trusted are vital when an individual is deciding to take risks. One side of this is ensuring rewards for successful risk-taking. A 100% 'tax' as you describe in utopian communism, or widespread corruption, or a bad legal system, etc, all redue the possibility of seeing possible rewards. The other side of the coin is risk limiting. Healthcare, retirement, children's education, bankruptcy protections, unemployment, etc, all affect risk-taking decisions in a similar way. 'Socialist' protections can thus strengthen capitalistic behavior.

flyinRyan 13y ago

Hacker news isn't for politics so please keep your horrible political ignorance off of here. You don't appear to have any clue what you're talking about and probably don't understand most of the terms you used. There's no point in discussing it, just please don't do it here anymore.