5 ms·

Bay Area BART Salaries

55 points by tlogan 13y ago

joshuaellinger 13y ago
This is a better way to look at the salaries. http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/BARTsalaries/BARTsalariesandovertime?:embed=y&:display_count=no http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/BARTsalaries/BARTsal... Tableau Rocks!
- bhickey 13y ago
  Where can I get just the data? I'd like to look at it in R.
- jotux 13y ago
  Something seems to be wrong. I see base salaries over 200k but in the tableau link the max base is 190k.
  - ebbflowgo 13y ago
    was thinking the same
- georgewfraser 13y ago
  A different view, total salary histogram: http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/BARTsalaries_0/Dashboard1?:embed=y&:display_count=no http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/BARTsalaries_0/Dashb...
- mr_spothawk 13y ago
  We should look @ total compensation (or at least Base + Other). The Asst Treasurer's base is $33,000 but the total is $338,000. Interesting to see the 60k 70k hump, though. Thanks for the visuals.
arrowgunz 13y ago
Wow. BART employees make more than an average Software Developer and yet they want to go on a strike. What a shame.
- justizin 13y ago
  Actually, the high salaried employees you see are people like the General Manager who refuse to personally come to the bargaining table at all, and probably approve raises for themselves. The average salary of striking workers is about $61k, and management has accepted that their current offer only results in a substantive increase of $1 over four years, after BART workers accepted a freeze four years ago to inject $100M into the system. More info: http://www.keepbartrunning.com/an_open_letter_to_the_community_from_the_bart_workers
  - peter_l_downs 13y ago
    Try looking at one of the later pages in the document -- average salary is around 30k! I believe your numbers for sure, just wanted to offer a clean example of "no, not everyone gets paid 80k base + 120k overtime." http://imgur.com/2vfQ1qi http://imgur.com/2vfQ1qi, from http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-area?Entity=Bay%20Area%20Rapid%20Transit&appSession=31916186704428&RecordID=&PageID=2&PrevPageID=2&CPIpage=1&cbJumpTo=123 http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-area?Entity=Bay%20Ar...
    - tlogan 13y ago
      Ok - for car cleaning you get $55K/year (plus full benefits). Is that a lot or too little? I don't know.. nurses I know don't earn much more in Bay Area but I might be hanging out with wrong people...
      - jholman 13y ago
        Nitpick: That $55k includes benefits, actually. That's $35k base, a little OT, a few weeks of vacation, M/D/V benefits, and pension contributions. I'd call that "$35k plus full benefits" if I was summarizing. Maybe "plus great benefits" if you wanted to slant it (I dunno if those MDV costs are high or low, though). Betcha the nurses you know are making more than that.
emanuer 13y ago
I am on page 60 where train operators and station agents are making $122 000. The difference between "workers" and manager salaries is about 4x, pretty low compared to the private sector. I find the salaries to be outrageously high, even factoring in that we are talking about the Bay Area & San Francisco. Considering that the average age of BART's cars is 30 years [1], the money seems better spend on updating the equipment. [1] http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/bart-moved-update-rapidly-aging-fleet-train-cars/nYKGq/ http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/bart-moved-update-rapidl...
- mc32 13y ago
  At this rate, something's has to give. If people (riders) realize what the salaries are and compare that to the service they get in return, they should ask for BaRT employees to become more efficient, given their salaries, else BaRT emps will price themselves out and automation will become more and more viable option, despite the political obstacle. So, yeah, I agree, they should use this money toward upgrades and or service expansion, maybe invest in an additional track smoother[1]. And, as someone said below, they need to realize that they are a service organization and act like one. [1]http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BAY-AREA-Softening-the-screech-along-BART-rail-2552642.php http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BAY-AREA-Softening-the...
  - samstave 13y ago
    I've been in more than a few verbal altercations with station agents at almost every downtown SF BART station, where, when going from the platform to the street via the elevator due to having a stroller - am confronted with a disgusting and unbearable stench of urine and other fluids in the elevators. I hit the emergency call button and demand they clean the elevators. I get a god damned attitude from the station agents as though its not their problem. Then who the fark's problem is it. The cost of BART and the service on gets - particularly the hygienic risk - is unacceptable. CLEAN THE DAMN ELEVATORS!
    - jeiting 13y ago
      Demanding somebody to do anything will probably not get you very far.
nemo1618 13y ago
Day-old discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5974829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5974829
ianb 13y ago
Things start looking weird when you get to the later pages (I'm looking at page 130, sorted by TCOE). For instance: Bodin, Gwendolyn (Train Operator, R-Line Rail Operations): Base pay: $2,901, Medical/Dental/Vision: $20,183 There's a bunch of people who I assume retired, with low base pay but a high "Other" (which includes vacation day payouts). Of course near the top there's a ton of overtime, lots of police, which is "normal" (no idea if it's actually legitimate), but lots of other jobs too, including some that I'd expect to be salary, like "Moore, Timothy (Principal Marketing Rep, Communications): Base $100,595, Overtime $40,165"
ww520 13y ago
Police make a lot of money. Their overtime is very substantial even if their base salary is already up there.
scrapcode 13y ago
What about the police officer on page 3 with a base of 73ish, yet a total of over 500k... Bonuses of over 100k. My figures could be off, though, because every time I load the page some data disappears. Anyone else getting missing info?
- ianb 13y ago
  No one has a total over 500k – the default sort is by total pay and the first on the list is Dorothy Dugger (General Mgr, Deputy General Manager), $419,661. What's the person's name? (Note that "Other" includes bonuses, but also includes payout for unused vacation time, which could be accrued over time – so in some cases it might represent something accumulated over many years.)
evanwolf 13y ago
fyi, publicizing how much union workers are paid is a common negotiation tactic by employers, attempting to erode public support for strikers. However you interpret the numbers and whatever you post about them, you're shifting the conversation from union concerns and talking points to management's.
- cmelbye 13y ago
  Is that wrong? I don't understand. Are the unions always right? Should we focus only on their concerns?
  - jcrites 13y ago
    Furthermore, it seems difficult to examine the situation at all without considering how much the workers are paid, and how much the company or government service earns or loses, and in the case of the government, how effectively it provides its service to the community. How can we really intelligently discuss the issue without knowing it?
  - eightyone 13y ago
    Read some of the other comments here that dissect how these numbers are purposely misleading. That's his point.
- bobo13579 13y ago
  So we should just ignore how much they're being paid, and let them fleece taxpayers?
quackerhacker 13y ago
I got an awesome tweet this morning in regard to the BART strike that just wanted to share: @cjc: Average BART employee salary is $83K/yr. A teacher with 10 years of experience in San Francisco makes $50K/yr. Who's striking again?
- kaptain 13y ago
  I'm assuming that average that you're posting is just the average of all the salaries listed in the data provide. This includes all the administrators (as far as I can tell). To be a useful comparison, you'd have to include all the salaries of the administrators OR only average the union workers with 10 years of experience (or whatever is the equivalent of a teacher with 10 years of experience). Interestingly, where did this person get this data? Is it publicly available?
  - quackerhacker 13y ago
    http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%20TK-12%20Salary%20Schedule.pdf http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20... http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/talks-between-bart-unions-management-resume/nYZmf/ http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/talks-between-bart-union... Since she's an ex-googler, I would hope it wasn't broad speculation, those are her sources. My stand on BART though is that they provide a very critical service to the Bay Area. So they have a lot leverage in their hands since the strike is being felt throughout the entire bay and all professional classes. I disagree that it should be happening if their pay is that high.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
btipling 13y ago
Comments here are disappointing. Pay is what employers are willing or need to pay to maintain skilled expertise. There's absolutely nothing wrong with collective bargaining driving up the price of the cost of employees. These salaries are middle class salaries in the Bay Area and barely enough to buy a house in some of the poorer areas. If you are unhappy with your own pay, work hard to improve your station in life. It is tax payer money, but it's paying what is needed in order to keep BART moving. BART provides an immense service to the bay area, and it can't happen without the drivers and staff. They provide a valuable service, and I support their strike.
- apsec112 13y ago
  "These salaries are middle class salaries in the Bay Area and barely enough to buy a house in some of the poorer areas." Whether someone can afford a house or not has nothing to do with what market rate for work should be. "One of the biggest divergences between the Daddy Model and reality is the valuation of hard work. In the Daddy Model, hard work is in itself deserving. In reality, wealth is measured by what one delivers, not how much effort it costs. If I paint someone's house, the owner shouldn't pay me extra for doing it with a toothbrush. It will seem to someone still implicitly operating on the Daddy Model that it is unfair when someone works hard and doesn't get paid much. To help clarify the matter, get rid of everyone else and put our worker on a desert island, hunting and gathering fruit. If he's bad at it he'll work very hard and not end up with much food. Is this unfair? Who is being unfair to him?" - http://paulgraham.com/gap.html http://paulgraham.com/gap.html
  - btipling 13y ago
    The mental gymnastics between perceived value of what these individuals do and the actual value (and damage the strike is doing to the local economy) do not match. It doesn't matter if you think these people are just pushing buttons. BART isn't running, and that immense value is not being provided. It also doesn't matter what people think these people should earn. It's what BART is willing to pay, and what employees are willing to accept to work there.
    - 13y ago
kungfooguru 13y ago
http://www.alternet.org/labor/7-things-you-need-know-about-bart-strike-california?paging=off http://www.alternet.org/labor/7-things-you-need-know-about-b... http://www.thenation.com/blog/175063/bart-strike-another-instance-media-portraying-workers-greedy#axzz2XwOY4YDO http://www.thenation.com/blog/175063/bart-strike-another-ins...
andymoe 13y ago
I don't buy all the outraged posts here or the facebook comments on the article. I expect everyone to negotiate hard on their behalf to put themselves and their families in the very best position they are able. Don't come crying to me because in your mind you value a BART employees contribution more or less than a teachers or your own contribution to society and you don't think it's fair. It's not about your subjective value of x or y or anyone's idea of fairness. It's about each parties leverage and negating position and nothing else.
- prostoalex 13y ago
  Except public employees' counter-parties at the negotiating tables are politicians financed by public employees' unions.
lemmsjid 13y ago
This narrative gets played over and over. People get ahold of public workers' salaries, see that they're getting a decent wage, and get all huffy that those public workers are personally stealing their hard earned taxpayer money. It's another version of people getting all upset when they see people buying nice things with food stamps. When I see those salaries, I think the following: * I'm glad to see that there's people at BART making a decent wage. * There are certainly other groups not making as much money. * What are the forces keeping other groups from making as much money, and how can we get them more? * San Francisco is in one of the richest regions on the planet. Why shouldn't its public employees make a good livable wage? * As a public transit user, I like knowing that the person I'm trusting my life with has enough money to keep their blood sugar up and their cortisol levels down.
thracky 13y ago
Keith Justice, Police Sergeant? awesome.

55 points by tlogan 13y ago

This is a better way to look at the salaries. http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/BARTsalaries/BARTsalariesandovertime?:embed=y&:display_count=no http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/BARTsalaries/BARTsal... Tableau Rocks!

bhickey 13y ago
Where can I get just the data? I'd like to look at it in R.
jotux 13y ago
Something seems to be wrong. I see base salaries over 200k but in the tableau link the max base is 190k.
- ebbflowgo 13y ago
  was thinking the same
georgewfraser 13y ago
A different view, total salary histogram: http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/BARTsalaries_0/Dashboard1?:embed=y&:display_count=no http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/BARTsalaries_0/Dashb...
mr_spothawk 13y ago
We should look @ total compensation (or at least Base + Other). The Asst Treasurer's base is $33,000 but the total is $338,000. Interesting to see the 60k 70k hump, though. Thanks for the visuals.

arrowgunz 13y ago

Wow. BART employees make more than an average Software Developer and yet they want to go on a strike. What a shame.

justizin 13y ago
Actually, the high salaried employees you see are people like the General Manager who refuse to personally come to the bargaining table at all, and probably approve raises for themselves. The average salary of striking workers is about $61k, and management has accepted that their current offer only results in a substantive increase of $1 over four years, after BART workers accepted a freeze four years ago to inject $100M into the system. More info: http://www.keepbartrunning.com/an_open_letter_to_the_community_from_the_bart_workers
- peter_l_downs 13y ago
  Try looking at one of the later pages in the document -- average salary is around 30k! I believe your numbers for sure, just wanted to offer a clean example of "no, not everyone gets paid 80k base + 120k overtime." http://imgur.com/2vfQ1qi http://imgur.com/2vfQ1qi, from http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-area?Entity=Bay%20Area%20Rapid%20Transit&appSession=31916186704428&RecordID=&PageID=2&PrevPageID=2&CPIpage=1&cbJumpTo=123 http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-area?Entity=Bay%20Ar...
  - tlogan 13y ago
    Ok - for car cleaning you get $55K/year (plus full benefits). Is that a lot or too little? I don't know.. nurses I know don't earn much more in Bay Area but I might be hanging out with wrong people...
    - jholman 13y ago
      Nitpick: That $55k includes benefits, actually. That's $35k base, a little OT, a few weeks of vacation, M/D/V benefits, and pension contributions. I'd call that "$35k plus full benefits" if I was summarizing. Maybe "plus great benefits" if you wanted to slant it (I dunno if those MDV costs are high or low, though). Betcha the nurses you know are making more than that.

emanuer 13y ago

I am on page 60 where train operators and station agents are making $122 000. The difference between "workers" and manager salaries is about 4x, pretty low compared to the private sector. I find the salaries to be outrageously high, even factoring in that we are talking about the Bay Area & San Francisco. Considering that the average age of BART's cars is 30 years [1], the money seems better spend on updating the equipment. [1] http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/bart-moved-update-rapidly-aging-fleet-train-cars/nYKGq/ http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/bart-moved-update-rapidl...

mc32 13y ago
At this rate, something's has to give. If people (riders) realize what the salaries are and compare that to the service they get in return, they should ask for BaRT employees to become more efficient, given their salaries, else BaRT emps will price themselves out and automation will become more and more viable option, despite the political obstacle. So, yeah, I agree, they should use this money toward upgrades and or service expansion, maybe invest in an additional track smoother[1]. And, as someone said below, they need to realize that they are a service organization and act like one. [1]http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BAY-AREA-Softening-the-screech-along-BART-rail-2552642.php http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BAY-AREA-Softening-the...
- samstave 13y ago
  I've been in more than a few verbal altercations with station agents at almost every downtown SF BART station, where, when going from the platform to the street via the elevator due to having a stroller - am confronted with a disgusting and unbearable stench of urine and other fluids in the elevators. I hit the emergency call button and demand they clean the elevators. I get a god damned attitude from the station agents as though its not their problem. Then who the fark's problem is it. The cost of BART and the service on gets - particularly the hygienic risk - is unacceptable. CLEAN THE DAMN ELEVATORS!
  - jeiting 13y ago
    Demanding somebody to do anything will probably not get you very far.

nemo1618 13y ago

Day-old discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5974829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5974829

ianb 13y ago

Things start looking weird when you get to the later pages (I'm looking at page 130, sorted by TCOE). For instance: Bodin, Gwendolyn (Train Operator, R-Line Rail Operations): Base pay: $2,901, Medical/Dental/Vision: $20,183 There's a bunch of people who I assume retired, with low base pay but a high "Other" (which includes vacation day payouts). Of course near the top there's a ton of overtime, lots of police, which is "normal" (no idea if it's actually legitimate), but lots of other jobs too, including some that I'd expect to be salary, like "Moore, Timothy (Principal Marketing Rep, Communications): Base $100,595, Overtime $40,165"

ww520 13y ago

Police make a lot of money. Their overtime is very substantial even if their base salary is already up there.

scrapcode 13y ago

What about the police officer on page 3 with a base of 73ish, yet a total of over 500k... Bonuses of over 100k. My figures could be off, though, because every time I load the page some data disappears. Anyone else getting missing info?

ianb 13y ago
No one has a total over 500k – the default sort is by total pay and the first on the list is Dorothy Dugger (General Mgr, Deputy General Manager), $419,661. What's the person's name? (Note that "Other" includes bonuses, but also includes payout for unused vacation time, which could be accrued over time – so in some cases it might represent something accumulated over many years.)

evanwolf 13y ago

fyi, publicizing how much union workers are paid is a common negotiation tactic by employers, attempting to erode public support for strikers. However you interpret the numbers and whatever you post about them, you're shifting the conversation from union concerns and talking points to management's.

cmelbye 13y ago
Is that wrong? I don't understand. Are the unions always right? Should we focus only on their concerns?
- jcrites 13y ago
  Furthermore, it seems difficult to examine the situation at all without considering how much the workers are paid, and how much the company or government service earns or loses, and in the case of the government, how effectively it provides its service to the community. How can we really intelligently discuss the issue without knowing it?
- eightyone 13y ago
  Read some of the other comments here that dissect how these numbers are purposely misleading. That's his point.
bobo13579 13y ago
So we should just ignore how much they're being paid, and let them fleece taxpayers?

quackerhacker 13y ago

I got an awesome tweet this morning in regard to the BART strike that just wanted to share: @cjc: Average BART employee salary is $83K/yr. A teacher with 10 years of experience in San Francisco makes $50K/yr. Who's striking again?

kaptain 13y ago
I'm assuming that average that you're posting is just the average of all the salaries listed in the data provide. This includes all the administrators (as far as I can tell). To be a useful comparison, you'd have to include all the salaries of the administrators OR only average the union workers with 10 years of experience (or whatever is the equivalent of a teacher with 10 years of experience). Interestingly, where did this person get this data? Is it publicly available?
- quackerhacker 13y ago
  http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%20TK-12%20Salary%20Schedule.pdf http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20... http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/talks-between-bart-unions-management-resume/nYZmf/ http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/talks-between-bart-union... Since she's an ex-googler, I would hope it wasn't broad speculation, those are her sources. My stand on BART though is that they provide a very critical service to the Bay Area. So they have a lot leverage in their hands since the strike is being felt throughout the entire bay and all professional classes. I disagree that it should be happening if their pay is that high.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

btipling 13y ago

Comments here are disappointing. Pay is what employers are willing or need to pay to maintain skilled expertise. There's absolutely nothing wrong with collective bargaining driving up the price of the cost of employees. These salaries are middle class salaries in the Bay Area and barely enough to buy a house in some of the poorer areas. If you are unhappy with your own pay, work hard to improve your station in life. It is tax payer money, but it's paying what is needed in order to keep BART moving. BART provides an immense service to the bay area, and it can't happen without the drivers and staff. They provide a valuable service, and I support their strike.

apsec112 13y ago
"These salaries are middle class salaries in the Bay Area and barely enough to buy a house in some of the poorer areas." Whether someone can afford a house or not has nothing to do with what market rate for work should be. "One of the biggest divergences between the Daddy Model and reality is the valuation of hard work. In the Daddy Model, hard work is in itself deserving. In reality, wealth is measured by what one delivers, not how much effort it costs. If I paint someone's house, the owner shouldn't pay me extra for doing it with a toothbrush. It will seem to someone still implicitly operating on the Daddy Model that it is unfair when someone works hard and doesn't get paid much. To help clarify the matter, get rid of everyone else and put our worker on a desert island, hunting and gathering fruit. If he's bad at it he'll work very hard and not end up with much food. Is this unfair? Who is being unfair to him?" - http://paulgraham.com/gap.html http://paulgraham.com/gap.html
- btipling 13y ago
  The mental gymnastics between perceived value of what these individuals do and the actual value (and damage the strike is doing to the local economy) do not match. It doesn't matter if you think these people are just pushing buttons. BART isn't running, and that immense value is not being provided. It also doesn't matter what people think these people should earn. It's what BART is willing to pay, and what employees are willing to accept to work there.
  - 13y ago

kungfooguru 13y ago

http://www.alternet.org/labor/7-things-you-need-know-about-bart-strike-california?paging=off http://www.alternet.org/labor/7-things-you-need-know-about-b... http://www.thenation.com/blog/175063/bart-strike-another-instance-media-portraying-workers-greedy#axzz2XwOY4YDO http://www.thenation.com/blog/175063/bart-strike-another-ins...

andymoe 13y ago

I don't buy all the outraged posts here or the facebook comments on the article. I expect everyone to negotiate hard on their behalf to put themselves and their families in the very best position they are able. Don't come crying to me because in your mind you value a BART employees contribution more or less than a teachers or your own contribution to society and you don't think it's fair. It's not about your subjective value of x or y or anyone's idea of fairness. It's about each parties leverage and negating position and nothing else.

prostoalex 13y ago
Except public employees' counter-parties at the negotiating tables are politicians financed by public employees' unions.

lemmsjid 13y ago

This narrative gets played over and over. People get ahold of public workers' salaries, see that they're getting a decent wage, and get all huffy that those public workers are personally stealing their hard earned taxpayer money. It's another version of people getting all upset when they see people buying nice things with food stamps. When I see those salaries, I think the following: * I'm glad to see that there's people at BART making a decent wage. * There are certainly other groups not making as much money. * What are the forces keeping other groups from making as much money, and how can we get them more? * San Francisco is in one of the richest regions on the planet. Why shouldn't its public employees make a good livable wage? * As a public transit user, I like knowing that the person I'm trusting my life with has enough money to keep their blood sugar up and their cortisol levels down.

thracky 13y ago

Keith Justice, Police Sergeant? awesome.