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Portugal is a mess recently with several cabinet members resigning, including a key figure overseeing the implementation of terms agreed to in its bailout by th

Portugal is a mess recently with several cabinet members resigning, including a key figure overseeing the implementation of terms agreed to in its bailout by the EU. I can see Portugal being in a particularly compliant mood at the moment in order to build good will with those that may have to help bail it out again. But France? What could possibly be the motive other than bending to pressure from the US?

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mark_l_watson 13y ago
The NSA/US government probably has lots of dirt on politicians in these countries, and are applying it. Democracies are not so much democracies when the NSA can blackmail local politicians. I personally believe that this is the whole point of our large scale sweep of "everyone" surveillance, no matter how innocent they are.
- ims 13y ago
  That could be it. Or the United States could be applying the typical measures of pressure in the diplomatic toolbox, consisting largely of economic incentives, concessions that meet other countries' policy goals, and appeals to mutual interest. You know, the standard tools of statecraft that have barely changed since the Congress of Vienna. You decide which seems more plausible.
  - mark_l_watson 13y ago
    Well my friend, I suggest we wait a year or two, and it might be clear which of us is right. I am old enough to have lived through the Pentagon Papers disclosures, when a lot of people were calling for the execution of Daniel Ellesberg. Now, only right wing whackos don't acknowledge that Ellesberg served interests of US citizens. EDIT: I am not being critical of you. I appreciate your comment, thanks.
  - lttlrck 13y ago
    Or, they are all in on it.
- eli 13y ago
  No need to jump to conspiracies. Is it really that crazy that France might just want to help an ally track down a desperately wanted fugitive? Surely they'd ask for our help if they thought a rogue intelligence agent was flying across the US.
  - mark_l_watson 13y ago
    Except, Snowden obviously didn't do this for personal gain. His life is probably over. Compare this situation to a British citizen a few years ago who sold sensitive state secrets for money, and got the MAXIMUM PENALTY by UK law: 2 years in prison. Snowden who rightly or wrongly is acting from I believe are his own moral goals, may get the death penalty, tortured like Manning, or life in prison. "desperately wanted fugitive"? I am curious about you, and why you use a phrase like this. Seriously, please explain your position on this.
    - eli 13y ago
      Maybe the French don't care what his motives were? I think I'd be generally disinclined to support people who publish state secrets if I were running a government. But I'm not sure why you're confused. You disagree that he is a wanted fugitive? Or with my characterization that he's "desperately" wanted? I think the US would very much like him to return and face charges.
    - mark_l_watson 13y ago
      Reply to Eli's child post, for some reason there is no reply link under his comment: I am confused by responses such as yours that only consider Snowden and not the public release of information about the NSA. I don't argue that Snowden should not get a year in jail after a fair trial. I personally think he has done the world a service and should get a walk, but a minimal jail sentence would be fair. The NSA leaks are a big deal, and I believe an opportunity for our country to get its act together. Anyway, thanks for your comment. So, I assume that you don't agree that our government would coerce foreign politicians. I wish that I could agree with you, but I can't.
    - lttlrck 13y ago
- e3pi 13y ago
  >The NSA/US government probably has lots of dirt on politicians in these countries, and are applying it. "Those who tell us to trust the US's secret, privatised surveillance schemes should recall the criminality of J Edgar Hoover's FBI." -Barret Brown http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/01/cyber-intelligence-complex-useful-idiots http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/01/cyber-in... http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/24/surveillance-us-national-security http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/24/surveill...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

mark_l_watson 13y ago

The NSA/US government probably has lots of dirt on politicians in these countries, and are applying it. Democracies are not so much democracies when the NSA can blackmail local politicians. I personally believe that this is the whole point of our large scale sweep of "everyone" surveillance, no matter how innocent they are.

ims 13y ago
That could be it. Or the United States could be applying the typical measures of pressure in the diplomatic toolbox, consisting largely of economic incentives, concessions that meet other countries' policy goals, and appeals to mutual interest. You know, the standard tools of statecraft that have barely changed since the Congress of Vienna. You decide which seems more plausible.
- mark_l_watson 13y ago
  Well my friend, I suggest we wait a year or two, and it might be clear which of us is right. I am old enough to have lived through the Pentagon Papers disclosures, when a lot of people were calling for the execution of Daniel Ellesberg. Now, only right wing whackos don't acknowledge that Ellesberg served interests of US citizens. EDIT: I am not being critical of you. I appreciate your comment, thanks.
- lttlrck 13y ago
  Or, they are all in on it.
eli 13y ago
No need to jump to conspiracies. Is it really that crazy that France might just want to help an ally track down a desperately wanted fugitive? Surely they'd ask for our help if they thought a rogue intelligence agent was flying across the US.
- mark_l_watson 13y ago
  Except, Snowden obviously didn't do this for personal gain. His life is probably over. Compare this situation to a British citizen a few years ago who sold sensitive state secrets for money, and got the MAXIMUM PENALTY by UK law: 2 years in prison. Snowden who rightly or wrongly is acting from I believe are his own moral goals, may get the death penalty, tortured like Manning, or life in prison. "desperately wanted fugitive"? I am curious about you, and why you use a phrase like this. Seriously, please explain your position on this.
  - eli 13y ago
    Maybe the French don't care what his motives were? I think I'd be generally disinclined to support people who publish state secrets if I were running a government. But I'm not sure why you're confused. You disagree that he is a wanted fugitive? Or with my characterization that he's "desperately" wanted? I think the US would very much like him to return and face charges.
  - mark_l_watson 13y ago
    Reply to Eli's child post, for some reason there is no reply link under his comment: I am confused by responses such as yours that only consider Snowden and not the public release of information about the NSA. I don't argue that Snowden should not get a year in jail after a fair trial. I personally think he has done the world a service and should get a walk, but a minimal jail sentence would be fair. The NSA leaks are a big deal, and I believe an opportunity for our country to get its act together. Anyway, thanks for your comment. So, I assume that you don't agree that our government would coerce foreign politicians. I wish that I could agree with you, but I can't.
  - lttlrck 13y ago
e3pi 13y ago
>The NSA/US government probably has lots of dirt on politicians in these countries, and are applying it. "Those who tell us to trust the US's secret, privatised surveillance schemes should recall the criminality of J Edgar Hoover's FBI." -Barret Brown http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/01/cyber-intelligence-complex-useful-idiots http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/01/cyber-in... http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/24/surveillance-us-national-security http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/24/surveill...