5 ms·

while this story is about a week old and got lost in all this nsa nonsense, listen to what mr. hastings said before his death. even on tv. i am german and i ca

by glasz 13y ago

while this story is about a week old and got lost in all this nsa nonsense, listen to what mr. hastings said before his death. even on tv. i am german and i can tell you that a mercedes benz DOES NOT just blow up and spit its engine 100yd down the street. the car wasn't even really against the tree... sometimes you just need to apply a little grain of common sense, ppl.

eridius 13y ago
I never even heard of Michael Hasting's death before today, so I don't have an opinion yet, but I find it hilarious that someone who is implying that a conspiracy is at work here is telling everyone to "apply a little grain of common sense". Conspiracy theories are not common sense.
- beedogs 13y ago
  ... says who?
- jamieb 13y ago
  Watergate "Scandal". From wikipedia: "On September 15, a grand jury indicted them, as well as Hunt and Liddy,[9] for conspiracy, burglary, and violation of federal wiretapping laws." I find it interesting that when the Watergate "Conspiracy Theory" was proven, two things happened: 1. The perpetrators were charged with conspiracy (proving it was a conspiracy), and yet: 2. The Watergate Conspiracy was henceforth known as the Watergate Scandal. In the Iran-Contra "Affair", "Fawn Hall, Oliver North's secretary was given immunity from prosecution on charges of conspiracy and destroying documents in exchange for her testimony." Again: 1. Perpetrators charged with conspiracy. 2. The conspiracy is henceforth known as The Iran-Contra Affair. Rinse, repeat.
  - derleth 13y ago
    You're being dishonest. That isn't what 'conspiracy theory' means and you know it. Noun phrases aren't defined by taking their words one by one; they have to be understood as a unit.
    - jamieb 13y ago
      Wikipedia again: "Originally a neutral term, since the mid-1960s it has acquired a somewhat derogatory meaning, implying a paranoid tendency to see the influence of some malign covert agency in events.[5] The term is sometimes used to automatically dismiss claims that are deemed ridiculous, misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish or irrational.[6][page needed] A proven conspiracy theory, such as the notion that United States President Richard Nixon and his aides conspired to cover up Watergate, is usually referred to as something else, such as investigative journalism or historical analysis." Ironic, isn't it, that since the time when genuine conspiracies at the highest level have come to light, the term has been successfully modified in the general vernacular to mean a ridiculous or paranoid idea. I'm not falling for the redefinition. You're welcome to.
      - derleth 13y ago
        Nobody's falling for anything except the people who think English is controlled by a secret cabal.
- gruseom 13y ago
  Conspiracy theories are not common sense That's a tautology. The phrase "conspiracy theory" intends something only a fool or a fanatic would believe—that's why it's always accompanied by ridiculing language. Cases shown to be real are not called "conspiracy theories" but "history".
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Do you believe this car wreck was suspicious? You're right that the term "conspiracy theory" is dismissive. Is it wrong to be dismissive of the theory that Hastings was killed using his car?
    - gruseom 13y ago
      I doubt it. And I get why you might find the thread annoying. But I believe people mostly use the term "conspiracy theory" to reinforce the assumptions of their own worldview. The comment to which I replied seems like a good example of that, since it didn't react to anything specific about this case (disavowed any knowledge of it, in fact), only the form that it took. One piece of evidence for this security-blanket interpretation of "conspiracy theory" is that we're much more likely to invoke the term about things that happen close to home, and much less likely to resort to it about things that happen abroad. Also, the ridiculing language that invariably accompanies the term is a social ritual. It has no content; its function is to enforce consensus belief. The human need for consensus belief is profound and we're largely unconscious of its influence on us, which makes it that much stronger. I think this phenomenon is fascinating and I wish it were possible to study it at a more-than-anecdotal level, but I don't know of anything like that. p.s. I think it's cool that this thread contains comments from not just an actual firefighter, but (if I'm reading correctly) a firefighter-programmer. As my sister-in-law likes to say: you barely ever get that!
      - tptacek 13y ago
        The very first thread HN had about Hastings crash was full of good comments like that --- someone whose cofounder died in a similar crash in a BMW, someone who posted a video(!) of a car crashing into a tollbooth and bursting into flames, a comment from 'JshWright who's been a firefighter/EMT for 10 years talking about the burn pattern in the video, another comment explaining how much worse the fire probably looked because of the limits of nighttime photography, comments from international assassination expert 'tzs about the Wil-E-Coyote nature of a plot to kill someone with an exploding car. It was great. But because of the nature of HN, all it takes is for the same story to get posted again and again, and eventually we get a thread that makes it to the top of the front page without all that high-quality debunking. Incidentally: another group of people using conspiracy-theoretic putdowns to dismiss the notion that Hastings was murdered: journalists. Google [hastings conspiracy theory]. Or [ambinder hastings]. Or [hastings truthers].
- glasz 13y ago
  would you please look up what "conspiracy" and "theory" means? thank you.
uptown 13y ago
It's easy to assume "conspiracy" for everything. Heck, Senator Mark Udall's brother (one of the most-outspoken Senators with the NSA story) has gone missing. You could call that a conspiracy - but it doesn't make it any more true. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/07/01/mark-udall-brother-missing-wyoming/2480761/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/07/01/mark-...
- glasz 13y ago
  our beloved chancellor merkel is outspoken, too, while enacting draconian laws just as full of stupidity as fisa, patriot act and ndaa. don't let yourselves be fooled by quacking senators. that said, politicians are usually not as much a threat to tyranny as journalists.
JshWright 13y ago
I'll see your 'German' qualification, and raise your decade of experience as a Firefighter/EMT. The car didn't blow up, it caught fire. That's not common, but it does happen. Same with the engine getting tossed... Not common, but it happens. I've seen both scenarios a handful of times (and surprisingly enough, they have a high correlation with fatalities).

by glasz 13y ago

eridius 13y ago

I never even heard of Michael Hasting's death before today, so I don't have an opinion yet, but I find it hilarious that someone who is implying that a conspiracy is at work here is telling everyone to "apply a little grain of common sense". Conspiracy theories are not common sense.

beedogs 13y ago
... says who?
jamieb 13y ago
Watergate "Scandal". From wikipedia: "On September 15, a grand jury indicted them, as well as Hunt and Liddy,[9] for conspiracy, burglary, and violation of federal wiretapping laws." I find it interesting that when the Watergate "Conspiracy Theory" was proven, two things happened: 1. The perpetrators were charged with conspiracy (proving it was a conspiracy), and yet: 2. The Watergate Conspiracy was henceforth known as the Watergate Scandal. In the Iran-Contra "Affair", "Fawn Hall, Oliver North's secretary was given immunity from prosecution on charges of conspiracy and destroying documents in exchange for her testimony." Again: 1. Perpetrators charged with conspiracy. 2. The conspiracy is henceforth known as The Iran-Contra Affair. Rinse, repeat.
- derleth 13y ago
  You're being dishonest. That isn't what 'conspiracy theory' means and you know it. Noun phrases aren't defined by taking their words one by one; they have to be understood as a unit.
  - jamieb 13y ago
    Wikipedia again: "Originally a neutral term, since the mid-1960s it has acquired a somewhat derogatory meaning, implying a paranoid tendency to see the influence of some malign covert agency in events.[5] The term is sometimes used to automatically dismiss claims that are deemed ridiculous, misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish or irrational.[6][page needed] A proven conspiracy theory, such as the notion that United States President Richard Nixon and his aides conspired to cover up Watergate, is usually referred to as something else, such as investigative journalism or historical analysis." Ironic, isn't it, that since the time when genuine conspiracies at the highest level have come to light, the term has been successfully modified in the general vernacular to mean a ridiculous or paranoid idea. I'm not falling for the redefinition. You're welcome to.
    - derleth 13y ago
      Nobody's falling for anything except the people who think English is controlled by a secret cabal.
gruseom 13y ago
Conspiracy theories are not common sense That's a tautology. The phrase "conspiracy theory" intends something only a fool or a fanatic would believe—that's why it's always accompanied by ridiculing language. Cases shown to be real are not called "conspiracy theories" but "history".
- tptacek 13y ago
  Do you believe this car wreck was suspicious? You're right that the term "conspiracy theory" is dismissive. Is it wrong to be dismissive of the theory that Hastings was killed using his car?
  - gruseom 13y ago
    I doubt it. And I get why you might find the thread annoying. But I believe people mostly use the term "conspiracy theory" to reinforce the assumptions of their own worldview. The comment to which I replied seems like a good example of that, since it didn't react to anything specific about this case (disavowed any knowledge of it, in fact), only the form that it took. One piece of evidence for this security-blanket interpretation of "conspiracy theory" is that we're much more likely to invoke the term about things that happen close to home, and much less likely to resort to it about things that happen abroad. Also, the ridiculing language that invariably accompanies the term is a social ritual. It has no content; its function is to enforce consensus belief. The human need for consensus belief is profound and we're largely unconscious of its influence on us, which makes it that much stronger. I think this phenomenon is fascinating and I wish it were possible to study it at a more-than-anecdotal level, but I don't know of anything like that. p.s. I think it's cool that this thread contains comments from not just an actual firefighter, but (if I'm reading correctly) a firefighter-programmer. As my sister-in-law likes to say: you barely ever get that!
    - tptacek 13y ago
      The very first thread HN had about Hastings crash was full of good comments like that --- someone whose cofounder died in a similar crash in a BMW, someone who posted a video(!) of a car crashing into a tollbooth and bursting into flames, a comment from 'JshWright who's been a firefighter/EMT for 10 years talking about the burn pattern in the video, another comment explaining how much worse the fire probably looked because of the limits of nighttime photography, comments from international assassination expert 'tzs about the Wil-E-Coyote nature of a plot to kill someone with an exploding car. It was great. But because of the nature of HN, all it takes is for the same story to get posted again and again, and eventually we get a thread that makes it to the top of the front page without all that high-quality debunking. Incidentally: another group of people using conspiracy-theoretic putdowns to dismiss the notion that Hastings was murdered: journalists. Google [hastings conspiracy theory]. Or [ambinder hastings]. Or [hastings truthers].
glasz 13y ago
would you please look up what "conspiracy" and "theory" means? thank you.

uptown 13y ago

It's easy to assume "conspiracy" for everything. Heck, Senator Mark Udall's brother (one of the most-outspoken Senators with the NSA story) has gone missing. You could call that a conspiracy - but it doesn't make it any more true. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/07/01/mark-udall-brother-missing-wyoming/2480761/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/07/01/mark-...

glasz 13y ago
our beloved chancellor merkel is outspoken, too, while enacting draconian laws just as full of stupidity as fisa, patriot act and ndaa. don't let yourselves be fooled by quacking senators. that said, politicians are usually not as much a threat to tyranny as journalists.

JshWright 13y ago

I'll see your 'German' qualification, and raise your decade of experience as a Firefighter/EMT. The car didn't blow up, it caught fire. That's not common, but it does happen. Same with the engine getting tossed... Not common, but it happens. I've seen both scenarios a handful of times (and surprisingly enough, they have a high correlation with fatalities).