5 ms·

Edward Snowden asylum: Bolivian president's plane diverted - live coverage

86 points by teawithcarl 13y ago

lmgftp 13y ago
An interesting choice if he were seeking to flee (/defect, perhaps) to Bolivia, as they have an extradition treaty with the United States [1]. It's bilateral, but I wonder if the Bolivians would keep him after the US refused to send them their former coca-growing president [2]. [1] http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-bol.pdf http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-us... [PDF] [2] http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/09/12/why_did_the_obama_administration_deny_bolivia_s_extradition_request http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/09/12/why_did_the...
- zalew 13y ago
  Having an extradition treaty doesn't automatically mean that the process will be successful or quick. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition So don't hold your breath. > US refused to send them their former coca-growing president Not a shocker to me. They refused Poland sending a guy involved in contracting mob hitmen on our national police chief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Mazur http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Mazur
- sparky 13y ago
  As stated in [2], it's the current President who is coca-growing, not the former one they want the US to extradite.
teawithcarl 13y ago
The Guardian's "live blog" is the first place to look when Snowden news blows up. NYT's The Lede Blog is also excellent (currently blogging Egypt news). http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/ http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/
- TillE 13y ago
  The Guardian does a superb job with live web coverage of everything from football (soccer) matches to breaking news around the world. It's sort of just coincidence that they have a direct connection to the Snowden story in this case.
- mpyne 13y ago
  NYT actually has a perfectly cromulent story which explains some (though definitely not all) of the confusing aspects of the story. Apparently airspace shenanigans haven't been going on just today, for instance. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/world/europe/snowden.html?ref=world http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/world/europe/snowden.html?...
sp332 13y ago
Ah, so much passive voice! Who forced the plane to be re-routed?
- mtowle 13y ago
  A man after my own heart. Do programming textbooks/tutorials pain you as well?
naeem 13y ago
There's no confirmation yet of Snowden being on board, however wikileaks has offered this cryptic tweet: "The reported actions of France, Portugal and Spain this night will live in infamy." Source: http://thegrandsignal.com/edward-snowden-supposedly-stranded-in-austria-bbc-denies/ http://thegrandsignal.com/edward-snowden-supposedly-stranded...
- qwerty_asdf 13y ago
  https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/352194716680462336 https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/352194716680462336 Doesn't mean that France, Portugal and Spain actually thwarted any plans, but only showed their hand, and that they certainly would attempt to thwart any such plans if they could. I suppose wikileaks' tweet is just saying "shame on you for even trying..."
- mark_l_watson 13y ago
  If this turns out to be true, I will never again travel to these countries and spend my tourist dollars there. Not saying this is true, but if it is, NO MORE FRENCH CHEESE :-)
  - guelo 13y ago
    Freedom fries!
    - Jgrubb 13y ago
      This is seriously a crazy, upside down world we live in lately.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
StavrosK 13y ago
Oh wow, this sounds very significant. Looks like the US is trying to show the world that nobody exposes shady government tactics and lives.
- mark_l_watson 13y ago
  +1 for truthiness
- shirro 13y ago
  No, they are trying to show the world the value of collecting data on millions of innocent law abiding citizens and how it enables accurate targeting of which plane a whistleblower is on almost as well as it can prevent terrorists bombing marathons and flying into buildings.
frisco 13y ago
That's such a weird request. What, Portugal or France were going to shoot down the Bolivian president's plane if it didn't comply? Yeah, ok. I find it odd that this was demanded, and also odd that it then happened. Anyone have insight on either of these counts? EDIT: Portugal
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- lotharbot 13y ago
  Apparently the Bolivian presidential aircraft is a Sabreliner [0], which has a much shorter range than a big commercial jet. It may be unable to cross the Atlantic without a fuel stop near the coast. If Spain, France, and Portugal all say "don't fly here", they may not intend to shoot the thing down, but they might very well refuse to allow the aircraft to refuel when it lands. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabreliner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabreliner
  - imsofuture 13y ago
    I believe it's a Dassault Falcon. See: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001 http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001 Still a good point, but a Falcon has about twice the range.
    - lotharbot 13y ago
      Ahh, I failed to check the date on the "Falcon grounded" note at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_transports_of_heads_of_state_and_government#Bolivia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_transports_of_heads_of_stat... Either way, though, flying from Moscow to Bolivia is going to require a fuel stop or two, and the middle of the Atlantic is not a good place for that.
- sdoowpilihp 13y ago
  As far as I can surmise, the reason that the Bolivian president complied was due to the fact that had he not, it would at the very least, be seen as an act of aggression, and could possibly be seen as much more. Though they wouldn't threaten to shoot the plane down per se, you can bet they'd send up a few armed and loaded fighter jets to 'escort' the president's plane either out of their air space or to a safe landing zone where he could then explain himself to the proper authorities.
eloisius 13y ago
Clearly of no significance, but after reading Snowden's statement last night, I decided to research notable examples of stateless persons and found this guy: https://twitter.com/mikegogulski/status/352040771853099008 https://twitter.com/mikegogulski/status/352040771853099008
- steve19 13y ago
  He is not stateless. He is a US citizen being pursued by US Law enforcement. Stateless people do exist and they really have it hard.
  - eloisius 13y ago
    Not to argue, but he could be considered de facto stateless. However, the term stateless even being a thing piqued my interest rather more than whether or not Snowden actually is. Thus, I Wikipediaed all about it.
  - cypherpunks01 13y ago
    Renouncing your citizenship means you're no longer a citizen, no?
  - throwit1979 13y ago
    You should correct the wikipedia article, then. According to it, he renounced his citizenship, became stateless, and prior to that he served his probation sentence, and is therefore not wanted by US law enforcement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Gogulski http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Gogulski Always annoying when Wikipedia is wrong about everything.
res0nat0r 13y ago
Latest update: less than 1m ago Snowden is not on the plane, AFP reports AFP are reporting that Austrian foreign ministry officials have confirmed Edward Snowden is not on the plane. The report continues: "President Morales will leave early Wednesday morning for La Paz," the Bolivian capital, ministry spokesman Alexander Schallenberg told AFP. Austria did not know why Morales's plane had landed there, he added.
paul_f 13y ago
If not on the plane, then exactly where ARE Butch and Sundance? I have to know!
mtowle 13y ago
Ohhh I get it. Very clever, Wikileaks! Certain countries, I believe Switzerland is one, require for asylum some proof that your home country/maybe certain other countries can't protect you. This was a show of proof. They knew somebody would take the bait.
- swang 13y ago
  When you seek asylum it is because you seek protection from your home country.
  - kinghajj 13y ago
    Which country do you think is most likely to have encouraged/compelled/suggested/persuaded/etc. these ones to act this way?
jstalin 13y ago
Hopefully Morales' plane was just a diversion and there's another plane with Snowden on it on its way somewhere else...
- pvnick 13y ago
  Oh God that be wonderful
  - r-s 13y ago
    It would be scary if Snowden is not heard from within a day or two after this. Doesn't seem like he would ever be the type to vanish purposely.
httpteapot 13y ago
I am ashamed to be French.
sergiotapia 13y ago
Ex-pat in Bolivia here. People here are _pissed_ at this abuse. I wish Snowden does make his way here to Bolivia and hides in the jungle. Good luck finding him.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
cjambassador392 13y ago
It's really a sign of how blinded we've all become to the mainstream media's message that the entire front page isn't 100% Snowden related articles. I am very scared for the world that even here on HN we are not 100% focused on where Snowden might be.
jeltz 13y ago
Interesting to see that France and Portugal are willing to risk their diplomatic relations with South America for getting Snowden. I would not have expected that. I would guess people and politicians in Bolivia are quite pissed right now.
staircasebug 13y ago
No Snowden on board? Hiding in the smuggler cargo bays, perhaps?

86 points by teawithcarl 13y ago

An interesting choice if he were seeking to flee (/defect, perhaps) to Bolivia, as they have an extradition treaty with the United States [1]. It's bilateral, but I wonder if the Bolivians would keep him after the US refused to send them their former coca-growing president [2]. [1] http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-bol.pdf http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-us... [PDF] [2] http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/09/12/why_did_the_obama_administration_deny_bolivia_s_extradition_request http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/09/12/why_did_the...

zalew 13y ago
Having an extradition treaty doesn't automatically mean that the process will be successful or quick. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition So don't hold your breath. > US refused to send them their former coca-growing president Not a shocker to me. They refused Poland sending a guy involved in contracting mob hitmen on our national police chief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Mazur http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Mazur
sparky 13y ago
As stated in [2], it's the current President who is coca-growing, not the former one they want the US to extradite.

teawithcarl 13y ago

The Guardian's "live blog" is the first place to look when Snowden news blows up. NYT's The Lede Blog is also excellent (currently blogging Egypt news). http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/ http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/

TillE 13y ago
The Guardian does a superb job with live web coverage of everything from football (soccer) matches to breaking news around the world. It's sort of just coincidence that they have a direct connection to the Snowden story in this case.
mpyne 13y ago
NYT actually has a perfectly cromulent story which explains some (though definitely not all) of the confusing aspects of the story. Apparently airspace shenanigans haven't been going on just today, for instance. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/world/europe/snowden.html?ref=world http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/world/europe/snowden.html?...

sp332 13y ago

Ah, so much passive voice! Who forced the plane to be re-routed?

mtowle 13y ago
A man after my own heart. Do programming textbooks/tutorials pain you as well?

naeem 13y ago

There's no confirmation yet of Snowden being on board, however wikileaks has offered this cryptic tweet: "The reported actions of France, Portugal and Spain this night will live in infamy." Source: http://thegrandsignal.com/edward-snowden-supposedly-stranded-in-austria-bbc-denies/ http://thegrandsignal.com/edward-snowden-supposedly-stranded...

qwerty_asdf 13y ago
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/352194716680462336 https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/352194716680462336 Doesn't mean that France, Portugal and Spain actually thwarted any plans, but only showed their hand, and that they certainly would attempt to thwart any such plans if they could. I suppose wikileaks' tweet is just saying "shame on you for even trying..."
mark_l_watson 13y ago
If this turns out to be true, I will never again travel to these countries and spend my tourist dollars there. Not saying this is true, but if it is, NO MORE FRENCH CHEESE :-)
- guelo 13y ago
  Freedom fries!
  - Jgrubb 13y ago
    This is seriously a crazy, upside down world we live in lately.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

StavrosK 13y ago

Oh wow, this sounds very significant. Looks like the US is trying to show the world that nobody exposes shady government tactics and lives.

mark_l_watson 13y ago
+1 for truthiness
shirro 13y ago
No, they are trying to show the world the value of collecting data on millions of innocent law abiding citizens and how it enables accurate targeting of which plane a whistleblower is on almost as well as it can prevent terrorists bombing marathons and flying into buildings.

frisco 13y ago

That's such a weird request. What, Portugal or France were going to shoot down the Bolivian president's plane if it didn't comply? Yeah, ok. I find it odd that this was demanded, and also odd that it then happened. Anyone have insight on either of these counts? EDIT: Portugal

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
lotharbot 13y ago
Apparently the Bolivian presidential aircraft is a Sabreliner [0], which has a much shorter range than a big commercial jet. It may be unable to cross the Atlantic without a fuel stop near the coast. If Spain, France, and Portugal all say "don't fly here", they may not intend to shoot the thing down, but they might very well refuse to allow the aircraft to refuel when it lands. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabreliner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabreliner
- imsofuture 13y ago
  I believe it's a Dassault Falcon. See: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001 http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001 Still a good point, but a Falcon has about twice the range.
  - lotharbot 13y ago
    Ahh, I failed to check the date on the "Falcon grounded" note at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_transports_of_heads_of_state_and_government#Bolivia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_transports_of_heads_of_stat... Either way, though, flying from Moscow to Bolivia is going to require a fuel stop or two, and the middle of the Atlantic is not a good place for that.
sdoowpilihp 13y ago
As far as I can surmise, the reason that the Bolivian president complied was due to the fact that had he not, it would at the very least, be seen as an act of aggression, and could possibly be seen as much more. Though they wouldn't threaten to shoot the plane down per se, you can bet they'd send up a few armed and loaded fighter jets to 'escort' the president's plane either out of their air space or to a safe landing zone where he could then explain himself to the proper authorities.

eloisius 13y ago

Clearly of no significance, but after reading Snowden's statement last night, I decided to research notable examples of stateless persons and found this guy: https://twitter.com/mikegogulski/status/352040771853099008 https://twitter.com/mikegogulski/status/352040771853099008

steve19 13y ago
He is not stateless. He is a US citizen being pursued by US Law enforcement. Stateless people do exist and they really have it hard.
- eloisius 13y ago
  Not to argue, but he could be considered de facto stateless. However, the term stateless even being a thing piqued my interest rather more than whether or not Snowden actually is. Thus, I Wikipediaed all about it.
- cypherpunks01 13y ago
  Renouncing your citizenship means you're no longer a citizen, no?
- throwit1979 13y ago
  You should correct the wikipedia article, then. According to it, he renounced his citizenship, became stateless, and prior to that he served his probation sentence, and is therefore not wanted by US law enforcement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Gogulski http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Gogulski Always annoying when Wikipedia is wrong about everything.

res0nat0r 13y ago

Latest update: less than 1m ago Snowden is not on the plane, AFP reports AFP are reporting that Austrian foreign ministry officials have confirmed Edward Snowden is not on the plane. The report continues: "President Morales will leave early Wednesday morning for La Paz," the Bolivian capital, ministry spokesman Alexander Schallenberg told AFP. Austria did not know why Morales's plane had landed there, he added.

paul_f 13y ago

If not on the plane, then exactly where ARE Butch and Sundance? I have to know!

mtowle 13y ago

Ohhh I get it. Very clever, Wikileaks! Certain countries, I believe Switzerland is one, require for asylum some proof that your home country/maybe certain other countries can't protect you. This was a show of proof. They knew somebody would take the bait.

swang 13y ago
When you seek asylum it is because you seek protection from your home country.
- kinghajj 13y ago
  Which country do you think is most likely to have encouraged/compelled/suggested/persuaded/etc. these ones to act this way?

jstalin 13y ago

Hopefully Morales' plane was just a diversion and there's another plane with Snowden on it on its way somewhere else...

pvnick 13y ago
Oh God that be wonderful
- r-s 13y ago
  It would be scary if Snowden is not heard from within a day or two after this. Doesn't seem like he would ever be the type to vanish purposely.

httpteapot 13y ago

I am ashamed to be French.

sergiotapia 13y ago

Ex-pat in Bolivia here. People here are _pissed_ at this abuse. I wish Snowden does make his way here to Bolivia and hides in the jungle. Good luck finding him.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

cjambassador392 13y ago

It's really a sign of how blinded we've all become to the mainstream media's message that the entire front page isn't 100% Snowden related articles. I am very scared for the world that even here on HN we are not 100% focused on where Snowden might be.

jeltz 13y ago

Interesting to see that France and Portugal are willing to risk their diplomatic relations with South America for getting Snowden. I would not have expected that. I would guess people and politicians in Bolivia are quite pissed right now.

staircasebug 13y ago

No Snowden on board? Hiding in the smuggler cargo bays, perhaps?