8 ms·
Why I’m not paying the Troll Toll
- wtvanhest 13y agoI don't know Todd, but I'm assuming he donated the $3500 and he should state that to get more people interested.
- joe_hoyle 13y agoWhat?! Why would he be obligated or in any way suggested that he donate the sum Lodsys are asking for, isn't that the whole point of this: it's a ridiculous claim and he isn't required to pay the money.
- ricardobeat 13y agoI don't think he has any moral obligation to donate the amount asked by Lodsys. Putting his head on the block like this is already helping a lot more than $3500 given to lawyers could.
- wtvanhest 13y agoHe definitely doesn't have a moral obligation, but it is a fairly minimal number to help prove his intentions are genuine and not simply a strategy to save $3,500. Also, he should stress the risk he is taking in defending his position since most readers will not have any idea how big it is.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- d23 13y agoHow else are you going to get into the boy's soul?
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- unimpressive 13y agoJust delete this comment, while you still can.
- akiselev 13y agoIt's from The Nightman Cometh episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Both the OP and reply.
- ArcticCelt 13y agoI got it but I also remember a time when people purposely restrained from turning the comment section into a joke fest. It's simple when I want to write and read silly stuff I go on reddit and when I want a serious discussion I come here.
- GilbertErik 13y agoI think it's difficult to refrain from such sophomoric behavior when the title of the article so blatantly aligns with the joke. If an article was submitted with the title, "Beans, beans, they're good for your heart..." I think we'd all have a tough time abstaining from ANY sort of reaction.
- krichman 13y agoIt's not difficult to refrain. Before you post ask yourself if it adds anything meaningful to the conversation. Quoting television to make a joke doesn't really add anything substantial unless it's related to the topic and says something beyond the actual joke. Regarding "beans, beans", maybe also ask yourself if you are 13 or not :)
- d23 13y ago
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- quackerhacker 13y agoI'm against conceptual patents like these. I feel they are too abstract, monopolize a common functionality/method, and hurt competition. Way to go Todd Moore, even if they settled for $5, fight what you believe in! A general abstract patent that I can think of in relation is one I researched recently that Comcast filed, patenting online video playlists[0]. [0] http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=%22video+playlist%22&OS=%22video+playlist%22&RS=%22video+playlist%22 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...
- columbo 13y agoPatent Trolls are one of the reasons I've kept my small business under the radar and rely on word of mouth or known clients to spread it. I just can't afford it, and I'd rather open source the whole damn thing over giving some random slimeball in texas a dime. I've read about Patent Litigation/Troll Insurance, has anyone tried this? Recommendations?
- quackerhacker 13y agoI would definitely (and will now) look into it. There is nothing more heart breaking and disappointing then coding for hours, setting up an infrastructure, becoming bootstrapped...then getting a cease and desist. Only thing to compare to that type of disappointment would be doing a quick patent search on a business method you might be implementing.
- chao- 13y agoThere are two issues with what you suggest (looking up patents ahead of time): 1. Many times the Cease & Desists, or "Invitations to License" are about completely tangential topics or technologies to the core of your business. 2. If you do specifically look for patents ahead of time, and this becomes known in any legal proceedings, the penalties for willful violation of assorted IP are higher. IANAL but have heard this often enough from people, without seeing it refuted. Someone do correct me if I'm wrong.
- tanzam75 13y agoWillful patent infringement may lead to triple damages. (In legal terminology, called "treble" damages.) However, if you've never even looked at the patent, then by definition you cannot be infringing willfully. The payout will be limited to 100%.
- RexRollman 13y agoLodsys is simply despicable.
- noonespecial 13y agoMy company TMSOFT was recently sued by Lodsys in the eastern district of Texas. Again with this "eastern district of Texas". Might there be a way for the tech community to punish this podunk little area for letting themselves become a thorn in everyone's side? Refuse to ship or sell there? Put something in the TOS that refuses all support for products used there? Seems like something needs to be done to get the attention of the residents of this area and let them know that their local court has been usurped by trolls and is creating a national nuisance. If they all woke up one morning to find that Netflix was out and they couldn't even google why, it might get their attention.
- mpyne 13y agoIf that's a Federal circuit (which seems likely, [1]) then I don't think there's anything that the local Texans had to do with it one way or the other. It's a Federal circuit court that happens to be located in Texas, Texas doesn't actually appoint the judges who serve there. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_Eastern_District_of_Texas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_fo...
- jongalloway2 13y agoSeveral articles indicate it's also the jurors: http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2010/03/east-texas-jurors-and-patent-litigation/ http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2010/03/east-texas-jurors-and-p... http://www.businessinsider.com/why-patent-plaintiffs-win-in-east-texas-2013-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/why-patent-plaintiffs-win-in-... So I think the parent post might be on to something. Let's mess with Texas!
- techsupporter 13y agoFrom your second linked article: "In East Texas, juries are often older people who have less experience with technology and tend to view large corporate defendants with suspicion..." First, most of these cases are deliberately filed in Marshall, TX, an out-of-the-way rural town that's not exactly renowned for its experience in IT. Second, all this proves is that patent troll lawyers can simply "baffle them with bullshit" and I don't think that this specific location matters. The Eastern District of Texas has a secondary court in Plano, and Plano has been home to a variety of technology companies. You'll notice they're not filing in Plano where they'd be far more likely to encounter potential jury members who are familiar with terms like "hyperlink" and "web sockets."
- hcarvalhoalves 13y agoIs it possible to patent patent trolling, so trolls can be sued back? "Method for finding patent infringement in software" maybe?
- jonmrodriguez 13y agoIBM and Halliburton are both in the process of trying! http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/08/01/157743897/can-you-get-a-patent-on-being-a-patent-troll http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/08/01/157743897/can-you-...
- hcarvalhoalves 13y agoNow we're talking!
- Gorbzel 13y agoI generally support the fight against patent trolls, yet one of my biggest frustrations is that way too frequently the nature of discussion online regarding this issue obscures or even hinders substantive legal discussion about ways to actually reform the patent system. Unfortunately, it seems as if there is some of that going on here. Lost among all the valid criticism of Lodsys in the linked article is the actual motion to dismiss their claim. Rather than take the opportunity to challenge Lodsys' patent on validity grounds, which is what would really be needed to push meaningful reform, the author's attorney has chosen to pursue relatively unimportant civil procedure and state law defenses that seem a) unlikely to succeed (although IANYL) and that b) will do absolutely nothing to affect the state of patent law in this country either way. The defendant here isn't paying the "troll toll" because he doesn't want to cough up that money and believes he's in the right. Many of us probably agree with that belief. But it seems a bit disingenuous to write an article championing patent reform yet explicitly avoid the opportunity to take a real stand on that issue all while asking others to put their skin in the game to fight the good fight. Perhaps my time in IP law has left me cynical, so I've asked the author in his comments to address this and I'll update this post if he responds...
- barumrho 13y agoI am currently in the same situation. (I posted here on HN a while back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5272575 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5272575) The author was lucky enough to find a lawyer that will defend him pro bono, but in my case (and I assume many other cases that we don't hear about), the cost of defending is more expensive than settling. The problem is that it is really cheap for patent trolls to file a lawsuit, since they basically copy and paste the claim, which is most likely to be too poorly written to stand a chance in court. I wish the court had a strict approval process.
- flyinRyan 13y agoPersonally, I think it will cost you more to settle in the long run because settling makes patent trolling profitable, which means more companies will do it and you'll get hit more often.
- Already__Taken 13y agoThere's a name for this. In the long run it's in everyone's best interests to fight this but it's each individual member that risks the damage by losing so it goes on. It's not the group being sued it's just one member. Maybe everyone should pool resources into an entity to take up defence of anyone. I don't think the legal system allows it though.
- josteink 13y ago> There's a name for this. The inverse tragedy of the commons?
- if_by_whisky 13y agoWhat's inverse about it?
- josteink 13y agoI thought "Tragedy of the commons" referred to people over-harvesting limited resource in an unsustainable fashion knowing it is wrong because it wont matter if "just they" do it. And then everyone does it, and the resource dries up and everyone starves. This would be inverse in the sense that there is no limited resource being depleted, but bad seeds being sown, choking the environment and making it unsustainable. To me it seems like the same category of problem, but with the opposite kind of adversary and feedback loop, so I assumed it wasn't covered by that term. But it's also very likely that this is just the sort of unproductive, needlessly detailed nitpicking which geeks are so very much famous for. I've been known to go down that road before :)
- jaytaylor 13y agoBest of luck to TMSOFT, glad to see them fighting the good fight.
- lesterbuck 13y agoIANAL and I don't have any business to sue, but my mind wanders about "creative" approaches to patent trolls. 1. I live in Houston, which is a reasonable drive from the eastern district of Texas. If I got sued, I'd probably show up in court just to make them show up in court. 2. I wonder if a layered defense would work? "Every problem in computer science can be solved by yet another level of indirection." I've read about holding company structures where Company A holds the trademarks, code, IP, etc. for a business and then licenses it for use by Company B. Company B is a shell that passes back everything to Company A. The only one doing business potentially "making, using or selling" the potentially patented IP is Company B, which can string the troll along, then close up business overnight and reappear as Company C, with new licensing agreements from Company A. Probably doesn't work long term, but it sure would slow them down. 3. What about "patent troll delayers" as a service? These would be people who live near the court that are given, say, 0.01% of the company. As "owners" of the company, they may appear in court pro se, without hiring a lawyer. I think there are requirements to be in the patent bar before appearing in patent trials, so pro se is not an option, but just showing up, acting pissed off, and demanding your rights might gum up enough of the court's docket to be some major friction in the troll's process. We aren't talking about million dollar judgements here, just enough friction to cost more than the settlement amount they were looking for. Imagine if the federal judge had to take time to throw out pro se defendants in hundreds of cases. There goes the court's schedule, and it would make great television.
- DannyBee 13y ago1. Uh, they have local lawyers in EDTX, and those lawyers are friendly with the judges. They are happy to. In fact, in EDTX, they have (or at least had) a local counsel requirement (IE if you didn't live there, you needed to also have an attorney who was local be retained), and plenty of local counsel charged ridiculous rates for the privilege 2. They'll just sue everyone anyway. What you are arguing about is the merits. Most have never cared about the merits. They care about getting settlements, or large verdicts in some small cases. 3. This is a great way to get thrown in jail for contempt.
- bnycum 13y ago
- Tomis02 13y agoI am not very familiar with USA's legal system, but is there no way to sue the troll after winning the trial so that they pay your legal expenses? I know this is possible in some European countries. Also, is there no way to file criminal charges for harassment (or something similar) against this kinds of companies?
- jlgaddis 13y agoYes, but these cases for drag on for years. Many of the defendant companies (especially the small ones) do not have the resources to continue to pay legal counsel until the case is resolved.
- jessaustin 13y agoAlso the troll often doesn't act directly, but sets up an "independent" company to which it assigns IP rights for a limited period. If that shell company loses the lawsuit, it simply disappears and the IP reverts to the parent. There aren't any assets to attack. If they did set up a loser-pays system, it would also require the use of escrow accounts to avoid this problem. This seems to have helped combat the SLAPP phenomenon.
- Qantourisc 13y agoThis sound like "We don't negotiate with ... no not terrorists ... trolls !" @Lodsys: if you are suing patents because of a pod-cast: you are a not only a patent troll, you are a troll in every regard !
- paulkoer 13y agoHere is a simple suggestion to end the lawsuit madness: The loosing party must bear all costs of the process. This is how it works in Germany. Added benefit: The expected value for suing people over the most ridiculous things is suddenly negative.
- tanzam75 13y agoYou don't even have to go to a civil law jurisdiction like Germany. Loser-pays is also how the British legal system works. I have a better one. A losing plaintiff should pay some small percentage, say 2%, of the damages that they sought. This discourages people from filing suits for ridiculous amounts of money, in the hopes of getting a reduced award later on. Whereas if reasonable damages were sought, then 2% will be much less than the legal fees even if the plaintiff loses. Thus, it would not deter reasonable lawsuits.
- orasis 13y agoIts Always Sunny - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ8G2s--1zA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ8G2s--1zA