5 ms·

I saw the best minds of my generation write software to surveil and control the other minds of my generation.

by skore 13y ago

3am 13y ago
This is not a new phenomenon.
- skore 13y ago
  Agreed, sadly.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 13y ago
If we are going to attack every company that isn't morally virtuous, then there won't be much to talk about here on HN. E.g. building products for the advertising industry might seem less harmful than building products for the defense/intelligence industries, but how much economic harm is caused by an industry that preys on cognitive biases to get people to overpay for otherwise fungible commodity products? There is also a double standard here, isn't it? Working on Big Data technology that has applications for spying by the military = evil. Working on search or data classification technology that has applications to obsoleting workers and putting them out of a job = not evil? It's not a productive path to start treading down. Or at the very least, something about glass houses or "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone."
- dfc 13y ago
  Add any company associated with the fashion industry to the list of companies that are far from virtuous. If you have not seen "Girl Model" I highly recommend it. I never had any illusions that modeling was a virtuous industry but this documentary really opened my eyes to the evil inherent in the industry.
- skore 13y ago
  You are correct, I would include advertising in a strongly questionable moral territory. I think having the question "Is what we are doing morally virtuous?" hang there as a Sword of Damocles[0] is the way to go. Sure, few things are 100% morally virtuous. But the fact that you cannot achieve perfection doesn't mean you can or should stop trying. I see this kind of reasoning a little too often and it's a slippery slope to moral bankruptcy. Once you accept trading in part of your morals, all of them end up for sale, eventually. Instead, trading in morals should be a bloody tooth and nails fight. At best, you should only trade them in temporarily and never should you make your livelihood depend on your trading them in. We should be as terrified of losing our morals as we are of losing our lives because once a critical mass of our morals is lost, our lives are no longer worth living. Only once we are all truly terrified of losing our morals, constantly, will we stop not only producing bad (as in: truly questionable) technology, but also using good technology for bad. The difference between a good and an evil person isn't that the good person is perfect or unfailing. The difference is that good person hasn't stopped trying to be good. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damocles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damocles (including this here because it's an educating read, even if you think you know about it)
- NhanH 13y ago
  >> Working on search or data classification technology that has applications to obsoleting workers and putting them out of a job = not evil? Possibly, if that technology also allows us to, says, cure cancer? Hyperbole aside, putting workers out of jobs are apple-and-watermelon different than "helping" the military industry (spying or otherwise). And I'm fairly sure that the complaint of too much focus on the ads industry isn't particularly rare either.
  - skore 13y ago
    > And I'm fairly sure that the complaint of too much focus on the ads industry isn't particularly rare either. It was actually the basis for my adopted quote: “The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads, that sucks.”
- pnathan 13y ago
  It's a very productive path to go down and think hard about. As a community within society, we have a moral imperative to think about how our actions affect others. For my part, I refuse to work on tech that is a 'single-bladed sword'; I'll work on something that has broad application, but not something with only 'immoral' application. The crux is where to draw the line of morality. I think that's a reasonable discussion and worth deeply conversing about; morality is both an individual and community affecting thing. Both your self and your community need to consider it. Rightly divide the words spoken and think about whatsoever is true, just, and commendable...
  - Spearchucker 13y ago
    Morality is a fickle thing. Nobody (that I know of) disputes the good that is Tor. That very same network that provides anonymous hosting to drug dealers, paedophiles, and illegal gun sales.
    - pnathan 13y ago
      Fickle? Insasmuch as the human heart is... Anyway, let's tackle (for a thought example) your example. Why should Tor exist? It's a home to real creeps. (Freenet has the same problem). What precisely do these services offer that is so compelling that it's better to let them exist? Freedom? Privacy? Are those sufficiently compelling? Why so? I'm sure there are off the cuff answers out there - but maybe we should look deeper.
- Zigurd 13y ago
  It seems like we have plenty to discuss while giving neither Palantir nor Zynga a pass. It's a bit like you are saying we have to give Monsanto a pass because... Twinkies! What you are calling a "double standard" is actually a false dichotomy.
VladRussian2 13y ago
>I saw the best minds of my generation write software to surveil and control the other minds of my generation. the joke here is that it is not limited to "other" minds. Being a part of controlling part of society, people frequently start to feel like they are above the control, not a subject to it. It is a very mistaken feeling.

I saw the best minds of my generation write software to surveil and control the other minds of my generation.

by skore 13y ago

I saw the best minds of my generation write software to surveil and control the other minds of my generation.

3am 13y ago

This is not a new phenomenon.

skore 13y ago
Agreed, sadly.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

rayiner 13y ago

If we are going to attack every company that isn't morally virtuous, then there won't be much to talk about here on HN. E.g. building products for the advertising industry might seem less harmful than building products for the defense/intelligence industries, but how much economic harm is caused by an industry that preys on cognitive biases to get people to overpay for otherwise fungible commodity products? There is also a double standard here, isn't it? Working on Big Data technology that has applications for spying by the military = evil. Working on search or data classification technology that has applications to obsoleting workers and putting them out of a job = not evil? It's not a productive path to start treading down. Or at the very least, something about glass houses or "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone."

dfc 13y ago
Add any company associated with the fashion industry to the list of companies that are far from virtuous. If you have not seen "Girl Model" I highly recommend it. I never had any illusions that modeling was a virtuous industry but this documentary really opened my eyes to the evil inherent in the industry.
skore 13y ago
You are correct, I would include advertising in a strongly questionable moral territory. I think having the question "Is what we are doing morally virtuous?" hang there as a Sword of Damocles[0] is the way to go. Sure, few things are 100% morally virtuous. But the fact that you cannot achieve perfection doesn't mean you can or should stop trying. I see this kind of reasoning a little too often and it's a slippery slope to moral bankruptcy. Once you accept trading in part of your morals, all of them end up for sale, eventually. Instead, trading in morals should be a bloody tooth and nails fight. At best, you should only trade them in temporarily and never should you make your livelihood depend on your trading them in. We should be as terrified of losing our morals as we are of losing our lives because once a critical mass of our morals is lost, our lives are no longer worth living. Only once we are all truly terrified of losing our morals, constantly, will we stop not only producing bad (as in: truly questionable) technology, but also using good technology for bad. The difference between a good and an evil person isn't that the good person is perfect or unfailing. The difference is that good person hasn't stopped trying to be good. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damocles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damocles (including this here because it's an educating read, even if you think you know about it)
NhanH 13y ago
>> Working on search or data classification technology that has applications to obsoleting workers and putting them out of a job = not evil? Possibly, if that technology also allows us to, says, cure cancer? Hyperbole aside, putting workers out of jobs are apple-and-watermelon different than "helping" the military industry (spying or otherwise). And I'm fairly sure that the complaint of too much focus on the ads industry isn't particularly rare either.
- skore 13y ago
  > And I'm fairly sure that the complaint of too much focus on the ads industry isn't particularly rare either. It was actually the basis for my adopted quote: “The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads, that sucks.”
pnathan 13y ago
It's a very productive path to go down and think hard about. As a community within society, we have a moral imperative to think about how our actions affect others. For my part, I refuse to work on tech that is a 'single-bladed sword'; I'll work on something that has broad application, but not something with only 'immoral' application. The crux is where to draw the line of morality. I think that's a reasonable discussion and worth deeply conversing about; morality is both an individual and community affecting thing. Both your self and your community need to consider it. Rightly divide the words spoken and think about whatsoever is true, just, and commendable...
- Spearchucker 13y ago
  Morality is a fickle thing. Nobody (that I know of) disputes the good that is Tor. That very same network that provides anonymous hosting to drug dealers, paedophiles, and illegal gun sales.
  - pnathan 13y ago
    Fickle? Insasmuch as the human heart is... Anyway, let's tackle (for a thought example) your example. Why should Tor exist? It's a home to real creeps. (Freenet has the same problem). What precisely do these services offer that is so compelling that it's better to let them exist? Freedom? Privacy? Are those sufficiently compelling? Why so? I'm sure there are off the cuff answers out there - but maybe we should look deeper.
Zigurd 13y ago
It seems like we have plenty to discuss while giving neither Palantir nor Zynga a pass. It's a bit like you are saying we have to give Monsanto a pass because... Twinkies! What you are calling a "double standard" is actually a false dichotomy.

VladRussian2 13y ago

>I saw the best minds of my generation write software to surveil and control the other minds of my generation. the joke here is that it is not limited to "other" minds. Being a part of controlling part of society, people frequently start to feel like they are above the control, not a subject to it. It is a very mistaken feeling.