4 ms·

Instead of designers being dependent on WYSIWYG, let them learn HTML/CSS. It's not hard, and is a valuable skill to have.

XorNot 13y ago
Raw HTML/CSS is god awful - especially HTML, which has to be about the most unfriendly possible syntax to type out on a keyboard. Currently I'm loving Jade/Stylus to implement a fairly static website design, and that's just building it with a simple script (with Live.JS to preview changes).
- talmand 13y ago
  So your complaint about HTML is simply about typing it? You've piqued my curiosity, what's so horrible about the syntax in that you dislike typing it?
  - leephillips 13y ago
    This is about to turn into an argument about why designers need to learn vim.
    - talmand 13y ago
      That, hmmm, that actually sounds like fun.
  - woah 13y ago
    Closing tags are unnecessary and annoying. Also it is much more verbose than it needs to be. Hence jade, haml, etc
    - talmand 13y ago
      Then how do you inform the browser where a span ends when it is enclosed by text inside a div? A quick look at HAML and I fail to see how one is more or less verbose than the other. Of course, since I don't use it I suppose I'm not a valid source of comparison. But to risk negativity, this sounds a great deal like the no semi-colons in Javascript thing a while back.
      - andybak 13y ago
        A tag could be closed without repeating it's name. It's obvious from the DOM which tag is being closed. It's the job of code editors to help you out by matching start/close tags - not the job of the language. By the way - no semi-colons in javascript was a good idea aside from a few major factor - it broke things and it was a hack based on loose syntax handling. If it was built into the language design then it would have been a good thing.
        talmand 13y ago
        But closing a tag with its name makes it clear to the person writing the code what's being closed. Think of a div that contains, say, a hundred lines of HTML. There's a habit with some people to insert a comment at the closing div to identify which div is being closed by referring to its id. What you propose is trivial to the machine, but not necessarily easier for the human. By the simple fact that no semi-colons broke things and was a hack contradicts the thought that it was a good idea. Building it into the language might be a good idea but it wasn't to try to go around the language.
  - specialist 13y ago
    This is old, old territory. HTML's least offense is its syntax. XorNot just doesn't have the vocabulary (or desire) to rehash a settled debate. Just to save some time, HTML+CSS+JS fuses, poorly: 1) page description / layout 2) appearance 3) interaction / animation 4) forms 5) content 6) metadata / markup 7) typography 8) vector art and raster images You could probably throw in HTTP stuff, cookies, how much the DOM sucks, and multimedia too. Sadly, bad as HTML is, there hasn't been anything better.
    - talmand 13y ago
      But you are clearly covering topics that XorNot did not mention. He specifically stated disliking the syntax and having to type it. I would agree with you that over the years people have pushed features into HTML beyond what it was originally intended for, but that's not what's being discussed.
      - XorNot 13y ago
        Simply put: <p>some text</p> involves more awkward use of the right-side of my keyboard then there's any need for it to. Contrast to Jade where I would just go: p some text and let the indentation sort out the DOM structure. It's simple, readable, and doesn't overuse a set of keys placed more or less to be used infrequently (the <> brackets). All this translates to more productivity. CSS is different problems, but it still stems from being overly verbose (too many vendor tags to worry about) and lacking useful functions, interators etc. Basically CSS sans a preprocessor is just slow and clumsy to work in.
michaelpinto 13y ago
Yes it's easy to learn the basics of HTML/CSS, but to do it really well (i.e. on a professional level) really requires an investment of time. From a financial point of view I'm not even sure that it's time well spent given that you can always outsource the work cheaply on the low end.
- tholex 13y ago
  Spending time designing in photoshop and then "cheaply" "outsourcing" HTML and CSS development, aka your _actual_ website, is a terrible idea. There are people who implement designs well, and they are worthwhile to hire if you don't know browsers; they're certainly not cheap.
  - michaelpinto 13y ago
    It depends on what you're doing. Yes if you're doing a large scale project that's mission critical you want a front end pro and wouldn't dream of going cheap. But on the other hand say you have to do a single simple landing page for a one time marketing campaign it would be silly to bring in the best. Also as a designer I find myself telling potential clients that they don't need a designer and should just go with a template or a logo from 99designs. For the longest time I hated doing this, but I realized that if someone wants to spend from $10 to $500 to do something that I wasn't the right person for the gig!
scotty79 13y ago
It's only easy when you use one browser.

XorNot 13y ago

Raw HTML/CSS is god awful - especially HTML, which has to be about the most unfriendly possible syntax to type out on a keyboard. Currently I'm loving Jade/Stylus to implement a fairly static website design, and that's just building it with a simple script (with Live.JS to preview changes).

talmand 13y ago
So your complaint about HTML is simply about typing it? You've piqued my curiosity, what's so horrible about the syntax in that you dislike typing it?
- leephillips 13y ago
  This is about to turn into an argument about why designers need to learn vim.
  - talmand 13y ago
    That, hmmm, that actually sounds like fun.
- woah 13y ago
  Closing tags are unnecessary and annoying. Also it is much more verbose than it needs to be. Hence jade, haml, etc
  - talmand 13y ago
    Then how do you inform the browser where a span ends when it is enclosed by text inside a div? A quick look at HAML and I fail to see how one is more or less verbose than the other. Of course, since I don't use it I suppose I'm not a valid source of comparison. But to risk negativity, this sounds a great deal like the no semi-colons in Javascript thing a while back.
    - andybak 13y ago
      A tag could be closed without repeating it's name. It's obvious from the DOM which tag is being closed. It's the job of code editors to help you out by matching start/close tags - not the job of the language. By the way - no semi-colons in javascript was a good idea aside from a few major factor - it broke things and it was a hack based on loose syntax handling. If it was built into the language design then it would have been a good thing.
      - talmand 13y ago
        But closing a tag with its name makes it clear to the person writing the code what's being closed. Think of a div that contains, say, a hundred lines of HTML. There's a habit with some people to insert a comment at the closing div to identify which div is being closed by referring to its id. What you propose is trivial to the machine, but not necessarily easier for the human. By the simple fact that no semi-colons broke things and was a hack contradicts the thought that it was a good idea. Building it into the language might be a good idea but it wasn't to try to go around the language.
- specialist 13y ago
  This is old, old territory. HTML's least offense is its syntax. XorNot just doesn't have the vocabulary (or desire) to rehash a settled debate. Just to save some time, HTML+CSS+JS fuses, poorly: 1) page description / layout 2) appearance 3) interaction / animation 4) forms 5) content 6) metadata / markup 7) typography 8) vector art and raster images You could probably throw in HTTP stuff, cookies, how much the DOM sucks, and multimedia too. Sadly, bad as HTML is, there hasn't been anything better.
  - talmand 13y ago
    But you are clearly covering topics that XorNot did not mention. He specifically stated disliking the syntax and having to type it. I would agree with you that over the years people have pushed features into HTML beyond what it was originally intended for, but that's not what's being discussed.
    - XorNot 13y ago
      Simply put: <p>some text</p> involves more awkward use of the right-side of my keyboard then there's any need for it to. Contrast to Jade where I would just go: p some text and let the indentation sort out the DOM structure. It's simple, readable, and doesn't overuse a set of keys placed more or less to be used infrequently (the <> brackets). All this translates to more productivity. CSS is different problems, but it still stems from being overly verbose (too many vendor tags to worry about) and lacking useful functions, interators etc. Basically CSS sans a preprocessor is just slow and clumsy to work in.

michaelpinto 13y ago

Yes it's easy to learn the basics of HTML/CSS, but to do it really well (i.e. on a professional level) really requires an investment of time. From a financial point of view I'm not even sure that it's time well spent given that you can always outsource the work cheaply on the low end.

tholex 13y ago
Spending time designing in photoshop and then "cheaply" "outsourcing" HTML and CSS development, aka your _actual_ website, is a terrible idea. There are people who implement designs well, and they are worthwhile to hire if you don't know browsers; they're certainly not cheap.
- michaelpinto 13y ago
  It depends on what you're doing. Yes if you're doing a large scale project that's mission critical you want a front end pro and wouldn't dream of going cheap. But on the other hand say you have to do a single simple landing page for a one time marketing campaign it would be silly to bring in the best. Also as a designer I find myself telling potential clients that they don't need a designer and should just go with a template or a logo from 99designs. For the longest time I hated doing this, but I realized that if someone wants to spend from $10 to $500 to do something that I wasn't the right person for the gig!

scotty79 13y ago

It's only easy when you use one browser.