4 ms·

Snowden needs "world's protection", says Venezuelan President

104 points by qubitsam 13y ago

marknutter 13y ago
Then offer him asylum.
- antris 13y ago
  TFA: > "He deserves the world's protection. He has not asked us for it yet. When he does we will give our answer," Maduro told Reuters during a visit to Moscow.
gadders 13y ago
Yeah, but preferably from a democracy.
- kome 13y ago
  yes, like Venezuela. http://www.freedomhouse.org/country/venezuela http://www.freedomhouse.org/country/venezuela
  - jeffasinger 13y ago
    Just because they have elections does not mean it's a democratic country. I remember seeing anti-government graffiti late at night one night, and the following afternoon it had been replaced with a portrait of Chavez. The people who I talked to who were members of the opposition party were uncomfortable talking about voting against Chavez. Admittedly this was way back in 2006, but it still points to Venezuela not being the most free country.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - Stwerp 13y ago
      I also was in Caracas in 2006. I remember seeing graffiti "Vota Por Chavez" and the next day "Vota Por Chavez Jodete", the last part added overnight. It all depends on where you were (this was near parque del este, a more middle-class pro-opposition area). I went in expecting a dictatorship and left feeling that it was a democracy. Or at least much more than a hopeless dictatorship as all the articles I read made it sound. There did exist fear about expressing anti-Chavez sentiment in and around the barrios[1], but this was mainly due to fear of the people in these areas being dangerous and potentially lashing out. And in fact, many people were just scared of the barrios period. [1] Poorer, temporary-turned permament housing throughout the city, if anyone isn't familiar.
      - mc32 13y ago
        Most dictatorships have a semblance of normalcy. They need to have some kind of economy. Typically, people are not cowering in their huts fearing being bulldozed over at any moment. People can even prosper under dictatorships, like say, in Chile, back in the 70s. There might even be cases where most people 'have it good'. But it also means that a group or person makes all the big calls and has power over the judiciary and can intimidate or coerce the legislature. It also means there are informant systems which keep an eye out for 'troublemakers' (opposition ideas) and people don't open up completely about their dissatisfaction. Christopher Anderson[1],[2] is left of center and he felt disappointed to put it mildly, at what he saw in VZ. [1]http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/capitolio http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/capitolio [2]http://5b4.blogspot.com/2009/08/capitolio-by-christopher-anderson.html http://5b4.blogspot.com/2009/08/capitolio-by-christopher-and...
    - Quarrelsome 13y ago
      You do realise that Chavez's popularity was in part due to the subsidies and social care he provided people? He essentially sacrificed the economic stability of the country to win elections. While its not a nice thing to do for the future of the country its understandable that you could win an election legitimately using such a tactic.
hartator 13y ago
I wonder what they mean by "former request" for asylum. Isn't asylum the case where "former request" is hard to get and should not be a priority while life seems at stake?
kghose 13y ago
I used to think he was a pawn. Now I think he has some sensitive information and he's auctioning it and he has raised his profile to avoid being removed.
- Roritharr 13y ago
  I hope your "realistic" world view turns out to be wrong.
- laureny 13y ago
  > Now I think he has some sensitive information and he's auctioning it That would make him a full-blown traitor.
  - threeseed 13y ago
    He technically become one the minute he started revealing the nature of US spying activities against China et al.
  - WildUtah 13y ago
    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. Since the USA is not -- legally -- at war and none of the "terrists" the military is pursuing are able to offer asylum, it would not be treason. It would surely be espionage, though. And that's bad enough.
- pvnick 13y ago
  That's a pretty bold claim. I hope you have some evidence to back that up because currently all evidence points in the opposite direction.
madb 13y ago
I would hate to see Snowden ending up in Venezuela. He would not only become another count to the homicide statistics in the country, but It will also give Maduro, an illegitimate president, something to boast about.
- laureny 13y ago
  > I would hate to see Snowden ending up in Venezuela. Let's be realistic: at this point, the only countries that would offer him asylum at the cost of defying the US are enemies of the US, such as Afghanistan, Iran or Cuba.
  - _delirium 13y ago
    Especially considering it looks like he plans not to be quiet post-asylum. My read of the Russian case is that they suggested he might get asylum there if he basically drops off the radar and stops releasing things or being politically involved, and he refused that condition. To be willing to give him an active base to work from going forward more or less requires a country that either doesn't care or actively wants to snub the US, and doesn't mind that he might keep doing things that will continue to antagonize the US for years into the future. That's one reason I think the Bobby Fischer asylum was easier for Iceland: he was wanted by the U.S. for a one-time thing, violating sanctions by playing a for-profit chess match in Serbia. There was not much chance he would be an ongoing thorn in the side of US-Icelandic relations post-asylum, since he could hardly continue to violate US sanctions from Iceland. The main risk was just that he would say embarrassingly antisemitic conspiracy-theory stuff, which he got sort of a pass on because people expect chess prodigies to be nuts.
    - samstave 13y ago
      This really makes one wonder what more information he has. If he is unwilling to silent for asylum, then is the reason that he has something else major that he is determined to release?
alan_cx 13y ago
IMHO, there should be an independent UN protection. If not, then how can any individual whistle blow against a country with the power and reach of the US? We have the aggrieved party, a whole state, hunting down an individual for exposing its wrong doing. Its a little bit one sided. Although the problem with the UN is that its loaded with US allies and money. But there should be some safe harbour, with fair process, for people who speak out, where ever they come from and from who ever they are exposing.
- threeseed 13y ago
  It's a cute and noble idea but pretty sure that more than just the US would be against it. Because wait for it. Most countries spy. And most countries don't appreciate rogue contractors jet-setting around the world revealing secrets about the nature of the spying.
  - MikeCapone 13y ago
    Jet-setting? "In journalism, jet set was a term for an international social group of wealthy people, organizing and participating all around the world in social activities unreachable to ordinary people. The term, which replaced "café society", came from the lifestyle of traveling from one stylish or exotic place to another via jet plane." I'm pretty sure that tern doesn't apply to Snowden, a man who said he's fleeing because he's afraid of spending the rest of his life in some "torture dungeon" off the grid.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    Ignoring your jet setting nonsense, which is obviously not on the cards... Fair process. Counties with nothing to hide.... Yes most countries might have a problem with it, when considered alone. But, if all countries knew that it equally applied to all, and that there is a fair process of sorting out what is reasonable to "blow" and what should happen, it could benefit all. So, in this case, an independent review might separate out what is public interest and what it not, and what should happen to Snowden. It could benefit the US. Such an organisation should be the place the whistle blower goes to, not runs to after the "damage" is done. No, I don't have it all worked out. I am not a lawyer. Yes I can see how difficult it would be to get it right. However, that does not negate the idea and value of having a structure to do this with in. Of course it will never ever be perfect, but I say something is better than nothing. Whistle blowers could still do their own thing and take what ever risk the like. No UN organisation will stop that unstoppable freedom.
rafaelm 13y ago
I wonder why in the Venezuelan government's eyes it's OK for them to constantly monitor and record every call, email,etc made by their political opponents. I wonder what would happen to an officer of the SEBIN (venezuelan inteligence agency)if they came out with details about how they record every political opponent movement. I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up being just another statistic in the homicide rates. They even had a late night TV show (La Hojilla) where a guy would play back cell phone recordings and emails of the opposition politicians.Live. On TV. He had carte blanche to insult,record anyone he wanted live on TV. Chavez would often call in to the show to congratulate him. They even had a Congress session where they played recordings of the cell phone calls of the most prominent opposition members and their family. And that was live on TV again! Hipocrysy at it's best.
smsm42 13y ago
Somehow I am not inclined to hear an advice on freedom and humanity from the president of Venezuela... I understand they have their chance to stick it to the US and using it to the fullest, but you have to watch who you align with.

104 points by qubitsam 13y ago

marknutter 13y ago

Then offer him asylum.

antris 13y ago
TFA: > "He deserves the world's protection. He has not asked us for it yet. When he does we will give our answer," Maduro told Reuters during a visit to Moscow.

gadders 13y ago

Yeah, but preferably from a democracy.

kome 13y ago
yes, like Venezuela. http://www.freedomhouse.org/country/venezuela http://www.freedomhouse.org/country/venezuela
- jeffasinger 13y ago
  Just because they have elections does not mean it's a democratic country. I remember seeing anti-government graffiti late at night one night, and the following afternoon it had been replaced with a portrait of Chavez. The people who I talked to who were members of the opposition party were uncomfortable talking about voting against Chavez. Admittedly this was way back in 2006, but it still points to Venezuela not being the most free country.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - Stwerp 13y ago
    I also was in Caracas in 2006. I remember seeing graffiti "Vota Por Chavez" and the next day "Vota Por Chavez Jodete", the last part added overnight. It all depends on where you were (this was near parque del este, a more middle-class pro-opposition area). I went in expecting a dictatorship and left feeling that it was a democracy. Or at least much more than a hopeless dictatorship as all the articles I read made it sound. There did exist fear about expressing anti-Chavez sentiment in and around the barrios[1], but this was mainly due to fear of the people in these areas being dangerous and potentially lashing out. And in fact, many people were just scared of the barrios period. [1] Poorer, temporary-turned permament housing throughout the city, if anyone isn't familiar.
    - mc32 13y ago
      Most dictatorships have a semblance of normalcy. They need to have some kind of economy. Typically, people are not cowering in their huts fearing being bulldozed over at any moment. People can even prosper under dictatorships, like say, in Chile, back in the 70s. There might even be cases where most people 'have it good'. But it also means that a group or person makes all the big calls and has power over the judiciary and can intimidate or coerce the legislature. It also means there are informant systems which keep an eye out for 'troublemakers' (opposition ideas) and people don't open up completely about their dissatisfaction. Christopher Anderson[1],[2] is left of center and he felt disappointed to put it mildly, at what he saw in VZ. [1]http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/capitolio http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/capitolio [2]http://5b4.blogspot.com/2009/08/capitolio-by-christopher-anderson.html http://5b4.blogspot.com/2009/08/capitolio-by-christopher-and...
  - Quarrelsome 13y ago
    You do realise that Chavez's popularity was in part due to the subsidies and social care he provided people? He essentially sacrificed the economic stability of the country to win elections. While its not a nice thing to do for the future of the country its understandable that you could win an election legitimately using such a tactic.

hartator 13y ago

I wonder what they mean by "former request" for asylum. Isn't asylum the case where "former request" is hard to get and should not be a priority while life seems at stake?

kghose 13y ago

I used to think he was a pawn. Now I think he has some sensitive information and he's auctioning it and he has raised his profile to avoid being removed.

Roritharr 13y ago
I hope your "realistic" world view turns out to be wrong.
laureny 13y ago
> Now I think he has some sensitive information and he's auctioning it That would make him a full-blown traitor.
- threeseed 13y ago
  He technically become one the minute he started revealing the nature of US spying activities against China et al.
- WildUtah 13y ago
  Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. Since the USA is not -- legally -- at war and none of the "terrists" the military is pursuing are able to offer asylum, it would not be treason. It would surely be espionage, though. And that's bad enough.
pvnick 13y ago
That's a pretty bold claim. I hope you have some evidence to back that up because currently all evidence points in the opposite direction.

madb 13y ago

I would hate to see Snowden ending up in Venezuela. He would not only become another count to the homicide statistics in the country, but It will also give Maduro, an illegitimate president, something to boast about.

laureny 13y ago
> I would hate to see Snowden ending up in Venezuela. Let's be realistic: at this point, the only countries that would offer him asylum at the cost of defying the US are enemies of the US, such as Afghanistan, Iran or Cuba.
- _delirium 13y ago
  Especially considering it looks like he plans not to be quiet post-asylum. My read of the Russian case is that they suggested he might get asylum there if he basically drops off the radar and stops releasing things or being politically involved, and he refused that condition. To be willing to give him an active base to work from going forward more or less requires a country that either doesn't care or actively wants to snub the US, and doesn't mind that he might keep doing things that will continue to antagonize the US for years into the future. That's one reason I think the Bobby Fischer asylum was easier for Iceland: he was wanted by the U.S. for a one-time thing, violating sanctions by playing a for-profit chess match in Serbia. There was not much chance he would be an ongoing thorn in the side of US-Icelandic relations post-asylum, since he could hardly continue to violate US sanctions from Iceland. The main risk was just that he would say embarrassingly antisemitic conspiracy-theory stuff, which he got sort of a pass on because people expect chess prodigies to be nuts.
  - samstave 13y ago
    This really makes one wonder what more information he has. If he is unwilling to silent for asylum, then is the reason that he has something else major that he is determined to release?

alan_cx 13y ago

IMHO, there should be an independent UN protection. If not, then how can any individual whistle blow against a country with the power and reach of the US? We have the aggrieved party, a whole state, hunting down an individual for exposing its wrong doing. Its a little bit one sided. Although the problem with the UN is that its loaded with US allies and money. But there should be some safe harbour, with fair process, for people who speak out, where ever they come from and from who ever they are exposing.

threeseed 13y ago
It's a cute and noble idea but pretty sure that more than just the US would be against it. Because wait for it. Most countries spy. And most countries don't appreciate rogue contractors jet-setting around the world revealing secrets about the nature of the spying.
- MikeCapone 13y ago
  Jet-setting? "In journalism, jet set was a term for an international social group of wealthy people, organizing and participating all around the world in social activities unreachable to ordinary people. The term, which replaced "café society", came from the lifestyle of traveling from one stylish or exotic place to another via jet plane." I'm pretty sure that tern doesn't apply to Snowden, a man who said he's fleeing because he's afraid of spending the rest of his life in some "torture dungeon" off the grid.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Ignoring your jet setting nonsense, which is obviously not on the cards... Fair process. Counties with nothing to hide.... Yes most countries might have a problem with it, when considered alone. But, if all countries knew that it equally applied to all, and that there is a fair process of sorting out what is reasonable to "blow" and what should happen, it could benefit all. So, in this case, an independent review might separate out what is public interest and what it not, and what should happen to Snowden. It could benefit the US. Such an organisation should be the place the whistle blower goes to, not runs to after the "damage" is done. No, I don't have it all worked out. I am not a lawyer. Yes I can see how difficult it would be to get it right. However, that does not negate the idea and value of having a structure to do this with in. Of course it will never ever be perfect, but I say something is better than nothing. Whistle blowers could still do their own thing and take what ever risk the like. No UN organisation will stop that unstoppable freedom.

rafaelm 13y ago

I wonder why in the Venezuelan government's eyes it's OK for them to constantly monitor and record every call, email,etc made by their political opponents. I wonder what would happen to an officer of the SEBIN (venezuelan inteligence agency)if they came out with details about how they record every political opponent movement. I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up being just another statistic in the homicide rates. They even had a late night TV show (La Hojilla) where a guy would play back cell phone recordings and emails of the opposition politicians.Live. On TV. He had carte blanche to insult,record anyone he wanted live on TV. Chavez would often call in to the show to congratulate him. They even had a Congress session where they played recordings of the cell phone calls of the most prominent opposition members and their family. And that was live on TV again! Hipocrysy at it's best.

smsm42 13y ago

Somehow I am not inclined to hear an advice on freedom and humanity from the president of Venezuela... I understand they have their chance to stick it to the US and using it to the fullest, but you have to watch who you align with.