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> ...destructive tyrants, and ... screeching harpies. The common factor is a spineless parent. ... and typically they all seem to be seated in the row next to

> ...destructive tyrants, and ... screeching harpies. The common factor is a spineless parent. ... and typically they all seem to be seated in the row next to mine when I fly. The ability of some parents to calmly read a magazine and smile indulgently while their kid screams his head off and generally runs amok in a cramped and crowded space where nobody can leave is ... quite astonishing.... (13 hours left, only 13 hours...TT)

btilly 13y ago
Are you aware that refusing to engage with children undergoing temper tantrums is a standard technique for avoiding having them become more intense? (The calm you're frustrated at could well have been a deliberate act.) Have you also considered that tantrums are a phase that can last some time? (Think months. If you're lucky.) And finally, being on an airplane is going to present a lot for a kid to get frustrated about, and therefore many opportunities for unexpected tantrums even in kids who might be beyond them in other contexts. Having been on both sides of this equation (with kids who were, luckily for me, better behaved than most), I have far more sympathy for the plight of the parents than I once did. Yes, I know it is painful and frustrating. It is for the parents as well. Is it better to let the kid do things that might annoy others for the purpose of trying to avoid a worse tantrum? Or try to control the kid at the risk of having an explosion. If the worst happens, you know you can't realistically try to explain the basics of tantrums to all of the non-parents trapped in the plane with your screaming child. Or, even worse, the parents who were lucky with the genetic draw and wrongly credit their child's good behavior to their wonderful parenting skills. (I have a sister who learned this one first hand. Her third was by a different father than her first two, and she quickly lost all of her inner smugness about how wonderfully behaved her kids were.) You are going to be as trapped as they are, with the knowledge that they blame you and have no clue. I understand if you've not been there. But it is not as simple as you think. Really.
- tillinghast 13y ago
  While I'm not flip-flopping my position at all, I totally respect that it's a difficult job. I've got 8 kids, and I can't guarantee that on any given day I won't encounter a tyrant or a harpy. :-)
  - btilly 13y ago
    I didn't respond to your original comment because I agree with your position. I've seen a lot of cases where parents are obviously not doing their job. However I've had the "fun" experience of traveling with imperfectly behaved small children, and so the other person hit a button.
- snogglethorpe 13y ago
  > Are you aware that refusing to engage with children undergoing temper tantrums is a standard technique for avoiding having them become more intense? Yes, of course. But I'm not talking about kids having temper tantrums, I'm talking about kids being obnoxious (i.e., the kid is clearly not in any distress, he's just being annoying), and where it's pretty clear the parent just thinks the kid is cute (when they're paying attention). I certainly feel for parents that are trapped in that environment with a kid who's frightened, and when that happens I just grit my teeth and wish them luck. Parents who simply don't feel the need to make even the slightest attempt to control their kid are an entirely differently story. There are tons of places where you can be indulgent with your kids and let them go wild—but a crowded trans-pacific flight is not one of them. [At least in this context, it usually seems to be a certain "type" of parent in my experience: conspicuously image conscious, wearing lots of brand goods, an "upwardly mobile" vibe (though not rich, as they're back in coach with me), giving off a certain sense of affectation...]

btilly 13y ago

Are you aware that refusing to engage with children undergoing temper tantrums is a standard technique for avoiding having them become more intense? (The calm you're frustrated at could well have been a deliberate act.) Have you also considered that tantrums are a phase that can last some time? (Think months. If you're lucky.) And finally, being on an airplane is going to present a lot for a kid to get frustrated about, and therefore many opportunities for unexpected tantrums even in kids who might be beyond them in other contexts. Having been on both sides of this equation (with kids who were, luckily for me, better behaved than most), I have far more sympathy for the plight of the parents than I once did. Yes, I know it is painful and frustrating. It is for the parents as well. Is it better to let the kid do things that might annoy others for the purpose of trying to avoid a worse tantrum? Or try to control the kid at the risk of having an explosion. If the worst happens, you know you can't realistically try to explain the basics of tantrums to all of the non-parents trapped in the plane with your screaming child. Or, even worse, the parents who were lucky with the genetic draw and wrongly credit their child's good behavior to their wonderful parenting skills. (I have a sister who learned this one first hand. Her third was by a different father than her first two, and she quickly lost all of her inner smugness about how wonderfully behaved her kids were.) You are going to be as trapped as they are, with the knowledge that they blame you and have no clue. I understand if you've not been there. But it is not as simple as you think. Really.

tillinghast 13y ago
While I'm not flip-flopping my position at all, I totally respect that it's a difficult job. I've got 8 kids, and I can't guarantee that on any given day I won't encounter a tyrant or a harpy. :-)
- btilly 13y ago
  I didn't respond to your original comment because I agree with your position. I've seen a lot of cases where parents are obviously not doing their job. However I've had the "fun" experience of traveling with imperfectly behaved small children, and so the other person hit a button.
snogglethorpe 13y ago
> Are you aware that refusing to engage with children undergoing temper tantrums is a standard technique for avoiding having them become more intense? Yes, of course. But I'm not talking about kids having temper tantrums, I'm talking about kids being obnoxious (i.e., the kid is clearly not in any distress, he's just being annoying), and where it's pretty clear the parent just thinks the kid is cute (when they're paying attention). I certainly feel for parents that are trapped in that environment with a kid who's frightened, and when that happens I just grit my teeth and wish them luck. Parents who simply don't feel the need to make even the slightest attempt to control their kid are an entirely differently story. There are tons of places where you can be indulgent with your kids and let them go wild—but a crowded trans-pacific flight is not one of them. [At least in this context, it usually seems to be a certain "type" of parent in my experience: conspicuously image conscious, wearing lots of brand goods, an "upwardly mobile" vibe (though not rich, as they're back in coach with me), giving off a certain sense of affectation...]