4 ms·

Because it is an attack on gender. Creepers and harassment are exceedingly rarely discussed in gender neutral ways- it is usually a man doing something to a wo

by mehwoot 13y ago

Because it is an attack on gender. Creepers and harassment are exceedingly rarely discussed in gender neutral ways- it is usually a man doing something to a woman, or sometimes a discussion of the reverse. It is not often both in a neutral way. Additionally, the behaviour are things that a lot of people still do. Whereas with racism, to use the author's example, might draw the same ire (and it does in certain cases) as it divides people- there is mostly a generally accepted line that we know is publicly agreed on. But with harassment, until men are not so testosterone filled to constantly chase women, there will always be an element of their behaviour that women are going to find "creepy" at some point. As such, in every post you are condemning behaviour that around 50% of the population will have done at some point. You're asking more than half of your readers to carefully evaluate the proposition and say "I see that my behaviour sometimes can have adverse affects. This doesn't necessarily make me a bad person but we should all actually think about how this affects other people more often, because this is a bad thing". Whereas a good number of people are simply going to see an attack on them, and reply in kind. Note that talking about racism does make people very angry when you do the same thing- if you're talking about something that is murky and not clearly one way or another- say using a term that some people find offensive but many do not- then you're going to get exactly the same angry responses because now a good % of your readers are feeling targeted.

discodave 13y ago
You were doing so well until you made a sweeping generalisation about why men are different to women ("testosterone filled to constantly chase women"). The differences between men's and womens sexuality can be put down to a number of things: 1. Women being pressured to follow old ideals how they should behave. (i.e. fear of being a 'slut') 2. Women also feeling pressured to make themselves sexually available and attractive by the media. 3. The perception pepetuated in the media to men and especially geeks that everybody is having more sex than them . This results in a kind of angry justification for bad behaviour that the world is stacked against them and in favour of that douchebag jock from high school. You will notice that none of these reasons are set in stone, we can change them. Sexual politics does not have to stay this way. One more thing: Your statement that 50% of the population has done the behaviour in question seems a bit over the top and you seem to be almost implying that it's inevitable. If that were the case then it would be a horrendous statistic. Although I do think that a very high proportion of men have done something resembling harassment of a woman at some point in their life.
- chacham15 13y ago
  I dont think it was meant as one specific behavior, but the collection of behaviors that one may classify as creepy.
marvin 13y ago
I'd also like to add that the word "creeper" should be kept out of these discussions. It seems obvious that sexism is very common in United States computer culture. But the word "creepy", when used to describe an undesirable man, is every bit as derogatory as "fattie" or "slut" when applied to a woman. It's the kind of word that is used for character assasination. As you say, it doesn't go well when you imply that every man in a large group is supporting sexist behavior. The proper way to handle this issue is to just be direct when someone is behaving inappropriately and not use ambiguous language: "Don't touch girls who obviously don't want it - that is sexual harassment. Not cool." "Stop treating this woman like a sex object in a social setting - it is inappropriate." "Don't stare, it makes people uncomfortable." One final thought which I haven't heard from anyone else: I think one thing that can make a lot of nerd guys angry when it comes to this kind of behavior, is that many less-than-socially-masterful guys observe that women may respond very negatively to behavior that other men get away with. How sexual harassment is handled by women is very dependent on the situation and instigating person. The exact same behavior which would be met with disgust and derision at a tech conference, could be considered flirtatious and hot if it came in the right tone of voice from a hot guy at a nightclub. This is obviously no excuse for acting like an asshole in the tech community. But I think a lot of people severely underestimate the role that status, attractiveness and social skill has when it comes to these questions. The tech scene is not the only social environment where sexism and misogny occurs, but it is certainly the one with the highest concentration of men that can safely be shamed for it.
- theorique 13y ago
  The exact same behavior which would be met with disgust and derision at a tech conference, could be considered flirtatious and hot if it came in the right tone of voice from a hot guy at a nightclub. Exactly! Context is so important. And something that would be experienced as "inappropriate" at a given moment might be the perfect thing to do half an hour later. It's all about making other people comfortable in your presence.
- chrisro 13y ago
  >The proper way to handle this issue is to just be direct when someone is behaving inappropriately and not use ambiguous language It is not the responsibility of women to educate when they feel uncomfortable or fear for their safety.
chacham15 13y ago
> As such, in every post you are condemning behaviour that around 50% of the population will have done at some point. I agree with this exact sentiment. For example, hand holding is a thing commonly done among women friends in Japan. This sort of a thing in the US, however, would be viewed as 'creepy'. However, most of the examples that the author points to, IMO, would not fall under creepy, but rather offensive. Offensive, however, has a 'higher burden of proof' so to speak whereas creepy is just a feeling. Therefore, creepy gets used much more and consequently it makes men feel more violated because there is no way to rebut it. E.g. "the way you said hi to me was really creepy." There is no response to that which an honest person can give: apologizing means that you were indeed creepy and arguing makes you look stupid.
pekk 13y ago
A man doesn't even need to chase women to be stigmatized as "creepy". Merely being single and being in a place where someone doesn't want you to be, or doing something simple like opening a door or complimenting someone, is often stigmatized as "creepy" just because the recipient of the attention doesn't want it from the individual giving it. This is not to excuse any cases of actual sexual harassment, just an observation

by mehwoot 13y ago

discodave 13y ago

You were doing so well until you made a sweeping generalisation about why men are different to women ("testosterone filled to constantly chase women"). The differences between men's and womens sexuality can be put down to a number of things: 1. Women being pressured to follow old ideals how they should behave. (i.e. fear of being a 'slut') 2. Women also feeling pressured to make themselves sexually available and attractive by the media. 3. The perception pepetuated in the media to men and especially geeks that everybody is having more sex than them . This results in a kind of angry justification for bad behaviour that the world is stacked against them and in favour of that douchebag jock from high school. You will notice that none of these reasons are set in stone, we can change them. Sexual politics does not have to stay this way. One more thing: Your statement that 50% of the population has done the behaviour in question seems a bit over the top and you seem to be almost implying that it's inevitable. If that were the case then it would be a horrendous statistic. Although I do think that a very high proportion of men have done something resembling harassment of a woman at some point in their life.

chacham15 13y ago
I dont think it was meant as one specific behavior, but the collection of behaviors that one may classify as creepy.

marvin 13y ago

I'd also like to add that the word "creeper" should be kept out of these discussions. It seems obvious that sexism is very common in United States computer culture. But the word "creepy", when used to describe an undesirable man, is every bit as derogatory as "fattie" or "slut" when applied to a woman. It's the kind of word that is used for character assasination. As you say, it doesn't go well when you imply that every man in a large group is supporting sexist behavior. The proper way to handle this issue is to just be direct when someone is behaving inappropriately and not use ambiguous language: "Don't touch girls who obviously don't want it - that is sexual harassment. Not cool." "Stop treating this woman like a sex object in a social setting - it is inappropriate." "Don't stare, it makes people uncomfortable." One final thought which I haven't heard from anyone else: I think one thing that can make a lot of nerd guys angry when it comes to this kind of behavior, is that many less-than-socially-masterful guys observe that women may respond very negatively to behavior that other men get away with. How sexual harassment is handled by women is very dependent on the situation and instigating person. The exact same behavior which would be met with disgust and derision at a tech conference, could be considered flirtatious and hot if it came in the right tone of voice from a hot guy at a nightclub. This is obviously no excuse for acting like an asshole in the tech community. But I think a lot of people severely underestimate the role that status, attractiveness and social skill has when it comes to these questions. The tech scene is not the only social environment where sexism and misogny occurs, but it is certainly the one with the highest concentration of men that can safely be shamed for it.

theorique 13y ago
The exact same behavior which would be met with disgust and derision at a tech conference, could be considered flirtatious and hot if it came in the right tone of voice from a hot guy at a nightclub. Exactly! Context is so important. And something that would be experienced as "inappropriate" at a given moment might be the perfect thing to do half an hour later. It's all about making other people comfortable in your presence.
chrisro 13y ago
>The proper way to handle this issue is to just be direct when someone is behaving inappropriately and not use ambiguous language It is not the responsibility of women to educate when they feel uncomfortable or fear for their safety.

chacham15 13y ago

> As such, in every post you are condemning behaviour that around 50% of the population will have done at some point. I agree with this exact sentiment. For example, hand holding is a thing commonly done among women friends in Japan. This sort of a thing in the US, however, would be viewed as 'creepy'. However, most of the examples that the author points to, IMO, would not fall under creepy, but rather offensive. Offensive, however, has a 'higher burden of proof' so to speak whereas creepy is just a feeling. Therefore, creepy gets used much more and consequently it makes men feel more violated because there is no way to rebut it. E.g. "the way you said hi to me was really creepy." There is no response to that which an honest person can give: apologizing means that you were indeed creepy and arguing makes you look stupid.

pekk 13y ago

A man doesn't even need to chase women to be stigmatized as "creepy". Merely being single and being in a place where someone doesn't want you to be, or doing something simple like opening a door or complimenting someone, is often stigmatized as "creepy" just because the recipient of the attention doesn't want it from the individual giving it. This is not to excuse any cases of actual sexual harassment, just an observation