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To the UN document (which has dubious jurisdiction, but I'll play along): "Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecuti

To the UN document (which has dubious jurisdiction, but I'll play along): "Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution" Which is followed by: "This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations" Which negates your point, because of this: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20news/US-news-PDFs/Snowden-Complaint.pdf http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new... I don't understand what your point is about the nature of heroism.

jlgreco 13y ago
> dubious jurisdiction The Universal Declaration of Human Rights has no jurisdiction, it is not a law... If you are confusing it for one, then I think you have some reading to do. > http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new.. http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new.... Most political charges are dressed up as non-political. Does this surprise you? > I don't understand what your point is about the nature of heroism If your intent for bringing up heroism was not to imply that he should be "brought to justice", "turn himself in", "should not have run", or any variation of those, then consider my point about the nature of heroism to be an aside.
- mpyne 13y ago
  > Most political charges are dressed up as non-political. Does this surprise you? Snowden's own father says he broke the law... but he wasn't a traitor in doing so. But I don't believe the UDHR talks about treason in their exception request.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Of course he broke the law. So did Tank Man.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Sure. But let's call a spade a spade. He broke the law, and fled to avoid justice. All quite reasonable, from his perspective. But why is he trying to claim something different? He claims the U.S. pursuit of him is somehow extralegal or some kind of perversion of justice. It's neither. Snowden decided that the need of the public to know about PRISM was more important than the loss of national security value that would come from revealing the details about it. While that's his decision to make, it's not weird that there are laws in place to protect national security. His father acknowledges that. Hell, even Putin acknowledges that; why can't Snowden now? If you're going to go on the lam then hey, I see why.... but don't act like the government did anything weird in that regard.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        I don't think this is an "either-or" situation. He is fleeing "justice", he believes that the US is using extralegal, political, methods to pursue him in order to "bring" him to justice, and he finds it plausible that "justice" will involve a gross violation of his human rights. I am not seeing the problem here that you seem to think there is. What are you expecting him to say, "The only reason I am running is so that I am not subjected to a fair trail and humane punishment."?
        mpyne 13y ago
        > What are you expecting him to say, "The only reason I am running is so that I am not subjected to a fair trail and humane punishment."? He could just say "I broke the law for the public good, there's no way to get this issue the attention it deserves otherwise. I intend to remain free even if I have to be in exile, as that is how I can do the most good for the people!" etc etc. Not really that hard, you know. :P
        jlgreco 13y ago
        That would be a fine statement, but I have no problem with the statements he has made instead.
- stordoff 13y ago
  The UDHR is not a law per se, but has likely forms part of the customary international law, and so carries some legal force.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    It has influenced the creation of laws much like many other documents that lay out rights have. It itself does not carry legal force, though there are laws that implement ideas laid out by it that do.

jlgreco 13y ago

> dubious jurisdiction The Universal Declaration of Human Rights has no jurisdiction, it is not a law... If you are confusing it for one, then I think you have some reading to do. > http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new.. http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new.... Most political charges are dressed up as non-political. Does this surprise you? > I don't understand what your point is about the nature of heroism If your intent for bringing up heroism was not to imply that he should be "brought to justice", "turn himself in", "should not have run", or any variation of those, then consider my point about the nature of heroism to be an aside.

mpyne 13y ago
> Most political charges are dressed up as non-political. Does this surprise you? Snowden's own father says he broke the law... but he wasn't a traitor in doing so. But I don't believe the UDHR talks about treason in their exception request.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Of course he broke the law. So did Tank Man.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Sure. But let's call a spade a spade. He broke the law, and fled to avoid justice. All quite reasonable, from his perspective. But why is he trying to claim something different? He claims the U.S. pursuit of him is somehow extralegal or some kind of perversion of justice. It's neither. Snowden decided that the need of the public to know about PRISM was more important than the loss of national security value that would come from revealing the details about it. While that's his decision to make, it's not weird that there are laws in place to protect national security. His father acknowledges that. Hell, even Putin acknowledges that; why can't Snowden now? If you're going to go on the lam then hey, I see why.... but don't act like the government did anything weird in that regard.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      I don't think this is an "either-or" situation. He is fleeing "justice", he believes that the US is using extralegal, political, methods to pursue him in order to "bring" him to justice, and he finds it plausible that "justice" will involve a gross violation of his human rights. I am not seeing the problem here that you seem to think there is. What are you expecting him to say, "The only reason I am running is so that I am not subjected to a fair trail and humane punishment."?
      - mpyne 13y ago
        > What are you expecting him to say, "The only reason I am running is so that I am not subjected to a fair trail and humane punishment."? He could just say "I broke the law for the public good, there's no way to get this issue the attention it deserves otherwise. I intend to remain free even if I have to be in exile, as that is how I can do the most good for the people!" etc etc. Not really that hard, you know. :P
        jlgreco 13y ago
        That would be a fine statement, but I have no problem with the statements he has made instead.
stordoff 13y ago
The UDHR is not a law per se, but has likely forms part of the customary international law, and so carries some legal force.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  It has influenced the creation of laws much like many other documents that lay out rights have. It itself does not carry legal force, though there are laws that implement ideas laid out by it that do.