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Snowden is not using the common definition of the phrase. He is explicitly using a legal definition when he says "the extralegal penalty of exile." To argue th

Snowden is not using the common definition of the phrase. He is explicitly using a legal definition when he says "the extralegal penalty of exile." To argue that any person who cannot return to their home country without being arrested is "extralegally exiled" would mean that any fugitive is "extralegally exiled," an absurd result.

mpyne 13y ago
It was in fact the one comment I had been about to make. Snowden has chosen to avoid the U.S., explicitly to avoid the legal system. His own father feels he probably technically broke the law so it's hard to claim that the U.S. government has somehow managed to switch all 3 of its branches into a KILL SNOWDEN mode. If the charges are without merit then one of the very same judges that Snowden feels should be involved in these types of surveillance programs will throw them out. Snowden's exile may very well be extralegal, but both the exile and the extralegality of it are on Snowden himself.
- sneak 13y ago
  > Snowden has chosen to avoid the U.S., explicitly to avoid the legal system. No, he's chosen to avoid the US explicitly to avoid torture. There's nothing legal about that.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Are you saying that the US justice system is by definition torture? If so, I would think Snowden would have made that his moral priority to emphasize. There's no reason to fear "turnkey tyranny" (as he said) when we're already living in a torture regime, is there? In that case there's no key to turn, it's already here!
    - sneak 13y ago
      "turnkey tyranny" describes the future consequence for the median citizen. Torturing those who leak information prior to trial is something that the US government has already demonstrated a willingness to do. It's simply disgraceful - a national shame.
      - mpyne 13y ago
        Like how those other NSA whistleblowers were "tortured"? Their treatment was wrong, I'll admit, but calling it torture is insulting to those who have actually been waterboarded by the U.S.
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        Solitary confinement is torture.
        mpyne 13y ago
        Which NSA whistleblower was subjected to solitary confinement?
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        Fair enough, I was thinking of Bradley Manning. I don't know if the other NSA guys were held in solitary. However, I'll be surprised if they capture Snowden and he isn't. Why wouldn't he be?
        mpyne 13y ago
        > Why wouldn't he be? Because there are no bored, humorless Marines in charge of whatever Federal prison Snowden would end up in. I would surmise he should expect the same treatment as any other civilian accused of a Federal felony.
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        Maybe you don't know this, but there are tens of thousands of prisoners living in long-term solitary in supermax prisons in the US. Why wouldn't Snowden end up with them? What percentage chance is there that he might end up there? What percentage chance justifies an asylum request? http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_... By the way you might have to click on "link" to reply; I think the thread nesting is too deep.
  - kpommerenke 13y ago
    It has nothing to do with torture. Snowden is, quite reasonably, afraid of going to prison for breaking the law.
EthanHeilman 13y ago
It depends if the punishment has been legally or extra-legal decided and would be extra-legally carried out. Such claims are always a matter of opinion and whose law, but not all opinions are equal. 1. Threats Made by the US Government: Obama's statements such that Snowden is not worth the effort of an expensive extra-legal killing (“not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker”) by a president that has engaged in many extra-legal killings, at least one against a US citizen, is a threat of extra-legal action. For instance if someone sent a letter that said "I'd kill you but you aren't worth the bullets" would be interpreted by many courts as a threat. Furthermore direct threats of extra-legal killing have been made by other members of the US government. 2. Prior Actions Against Snowden: The fact that Obama has attempted to use trade deals and threats to prevent Snowdens asylum appeals suggests that Obama and the US government is not willing to give Snowden a fair hearing since they are manipulating the international system of asylum to prevent him from getting a fair hearing internationally. 3.Prior Pattern of Action Against Other Whistle Blowers: Obamas illegal treatment of Bradley Manning is part of a pattern going back before Obama of illegal mistreatment of whistle blowers by the US government. Given this evidence I would argue that the threat of extra-legal punishment is very much real and has been publicly communicated to all involved parties. The reality and communication of this threat to Snowden makes a very strong case for the claim that he has been extra-legally exiled.

mpyne 13y ago

It was in fact the one comment I had been about to make. Snowden has chosen to avoid the U.S., explicitly to avoid the legal system. His own father feels he probably technically broke the law so it's hard to claim that the U.S. government has somehow managed to switch all 3 of its branches into a KILL SNOWDEN mode. If the charges are without merit then one of the very same judges that Snowden feels should be involved in these types of surveillance programs will throw them out. Snowden's exile may very well be extralegal, but both the exile and the extralegality of it are on Snowden himself.

sneak 13y ago
> Snowden has chosen to avoid the U.S., explicitly to avoid the legal system. No, he's chosen to avoid the US explicitly to avoid torture. There's nothing legal about that.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Are you saying that the US justice system is by definition torture? If so, I would think Snowden would have made that his moral priority to emphasize. There's no reason to fear "turnkey tyranny" (as he said) when we're already living in a torture regime, is there? In that case there's no key to turn, it's already here!
  - sneak 13y ago
    "turnkey tyranny" describes the future consequence for the median citizen. Torturing those who leak information prior to trial is something that the US government has already demonstrated a willingness to do. It's simply disgraceful - a national shame.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Like how those other NSA whistleblowers were "tortured"? Their treatment was wrong, I'll admit, but calling it torture is insulting to those who have actually been waterboarded by the U.S.
      - foobarbazqux 13y ago
        Solitary confinement is torture.
        mpyne 13y ago
        Which NSA whistleblower was subjected to solitary confinement?
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        Fair enough, I was thinking of Bradley Manning. I don't know if the other NSA guys were held in solitary. However, I'll be surprised if they capture Snowden and he isn't. Why wouldn't he be?
        mpyne 13y ago
        > Why wouldn't he be? Because there are no bored, humorless Marines in charge of whatever Federal prison Snowden would end up in. I would surmise he should expect the same treatment as any other civilian accused of a Federal felony.
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        Maybe you don't know this, but there are tens of thousands of prisoners living in long-term solitary in supermax prisons in the US. Why wouldn't Snowden end up with them? What percentage chance is there that he might end up there? What percentage chance justifies an asylum request? http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_... By the way you might have to click on "link" to reply; I think the thread nesting is too deep.
- kpommerenke 13y ago
  It has nothing to do with torture. Snowden is, quite reasonably, afraid of going to prison for breaking the law.

EthanHeilman 13y ago

It depends if the punishment has been legally or extra-legal decided and would be extra-legally carried out. Such claims are always a matter of opinion and whose law, but not all opinions are equal. 1. Threats Made by the US Government: Obama's statements such that Snowden is not worth the effort of an expensive extra-legal killing (“not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker”) by a president that has engaged in many extra-legal killings, at least one against a US citizen, is a threat of extra-legal action. For instance if someone sent a letter that said "I'd kill you but you aren't worth the bullets" would be interpreted by many courts as a threat. Furthermore direct threats of extra-legal killing have been made by other members of the US government. 2. Prior Actions Against Snowden: The fact that Obama has attempted to use trade deals and threats to prevent Snowdens asylum appeals suggests that Obama and the US government is not willing to give Snowden a fair hearing since they are manipulating the international system of asylum to prevent him from getting a fair hearing internationally. 3.Prior Pattern of Action Against Other Whistle Blowers: Obamas illegal treatment of Bradley Manning is part of a pattern going back before Obama of illegal mistreatment of whistle blowers by the US government. Given this evidence I would argue that the threat of extra-legal punishment is very much real and has been publicly communicated to all involved parties. The reality and communication of this threat to Snowden makes a very strong case for the claim that he has been extra-legally exiled.