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Exile usually involves a threat of violence if the person returns home. Many exiles are exiles because their home country's government would hurt them if they r

Exile usually involves a threat of violence if the person returns home. Many exiles are exiles because their home country's government would hurt them if they returned. "Exile means to be away from one's home (i.e. city, state or country), while either being explicitly refused permission to return and/or being threatened with imprisonment or death upon return." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile Before calling into question the truth of statements made by a public figure please look up the common definition. Update: Websters does not use this exact definition, being a more compact format than wikipedia, but if you look under the examples in Websters you will see "Many chose to live as exiles rather than face persecution." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exile http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exile

michaelhoffman 13y ago
Snowden is not using the common definition of the phrase. He is explicitly using a legal definition when he says "the extralegal penalty of exile." To argue that any person who cannot return to their home country without being arrested is "extralegally exiled" would mean that any fugitive is "extralegally exiled," an absurd result.
- mpyne 13y ago
  It was in fact the one comment I had been about to make. Snowden has chosen to avoid the U.S., explicitly to avoid the legal system. His own father feels he probably technically broke the law so it's hard to claim that the U.S. government has somehow managed to switch all 3 of its branches into a KILL SNOWDEN mode. If the charges are without merit then one of the very same judges that Snowden feels should be involved in these types of surveillance programs will throw them out. Snowden's exile may very well be extralegal, but both the exile and the extralegality of it are on Snowden himself.
  - sneak 13y ago
    > Snowden has chosen to avoid the U.S., explicitly to avoid the legal system. No, he's chosen to avoid the US explicitly to avoid torture. There's nothing legal about that.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Are you saying that the US justice system is by definition torture? If so, I would think Snowden would have made that his moral priority to emphasize. There's no reason to fear "turnkey tyranny" (as he said) when we're already living in a torture regime, is there? In that case there's no key to turn, it's already here!
      - sneak 13y ago
        "turnkey tyranny" describes the future consequence for the median citizen. Torturing those who leak information prior to trial is something that the US government has already demonstrated a willingness to do. It's simply disgraceful - a national shame.
        mpyne 13y ago
        Like how those other NSA whistleblowers were "tortured"? Their treatment was wrong, I'll admit, but calling it torture is insulting to those who have actually been waterboarded by the U.S.
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        Solitary confinement is torture.
        mpyne 13y ago
        Which NSA whistleblower was subjected to solitary confinement?
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
- EthanHeilman 13y ago
  It depends if the punishment has been legally or extra-legal decided and would be extra-legally carried out. Such claims are always a matter of opinion and whose law, but not all opinions are equal. 1. Threats Made by the US Government: Obama's statements such that Snowden is not worth the effort of an expensive extra-legal killing (“not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker”) by a president that has engaged in many extra-legal killings, at least one against a US citizen, is a threat of extra-legal action. For instance if someone sent a letter that said "I'd kill you but you aren't worth the bullets" would be interpreted by many courts as a threat. Furthermore direct threats of extra-legal killing have been made by other members of the US government. 2. Prior Actions Against Snowden: The fact that Obama has attempted to use trade deals and threats to prevent Snowdens asylum appeals suggests that Obama and the US government is not willing to give Snowden a fair hearing since they are manipulating the international system of asylum to prevent him from getting a fair hearing internationally. 3.Prior Pattern of Action Against Other Whistle Blowers: Obamas illegal treatment of Bradley Manning is part of a pattern going back before Obama of illegal mistreatment of whistle blowers by the US government. Given this evidence I would argue that the threat of extra-legal punishment is very much real and has been publicly communicated to all involved parties. The reality and communication of this threat to Snowden makes a very strong case for the claim that he has been extra-legally exiled.
res0nat0r 13y ago
Websters does not have any language of the sort relating to "imprisonment or death upon return". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exile http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exile By the Wikipedia definition above every criminal who flees the country to avoid arrest is by definition in exile. Skipping town because you want to avoid a crime isn't being in exile, it is being on the run.
- EthanHeilman 13y ago
  Websters does not use this exact definition, being a more compact format than wikipedia, but if you look under the examples in Websters you will see "Many chose to live as exiles rather than face persecution." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exile http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exile
willvarfar 13y ago
Fun that we reach for the wikipedia definition of a word; that definition is easily editable.

michaelhoffman 13y ago

Snowden is not using the common definition of the phrase. He is explicitly using a legal definition when he says "the extralegal penalty of exile." To argue that any person who cannot return to their home country without being arrested is "extralegally exiled" would mean that any fugitive is "extralegally exiled," an absurd result.

mpyne 13y ago
It was in fact the one comment I had been about to make. Snowden has chosen to avoid the U.S., explicitly to avoid the legal system. His own father feels he probably technically broke the law so it's hard to claim that the U.S. government has somehow managed to switch all 3 of its branches into a KILL SNOWDEN mode. If the charges are without merit then one of the very same judges that Snowden feels should be involved in these types of surveillance programs will throw them out. Snowden's exile may very well be extralegal, but both the exile and the extralegality of it are on Snowden himself.
- sneak 13y ago
  > Snowden has chosen to avoid the U.S., explicitly to avoid the legal system. No, he's chosen to avoid the US explicitly to avoid torture. There's nothing legal about that.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Are you saying that the US justice system is by definition torture? If so, I would think Snowden would have made that his moral priority to emphasize. There's no reason to fear "turnkey tyranny" (as he said) when we're already living in a torture regime, is there? In that case there's no key to turn, it's already here!
    - sneak 13y ago
      "turnkey tyranny" describes the future consequence for the median citizen. Torturing those who leak information prior to trial is something that the US government has already demonstrated a willingness to do. It's simply disgraceful - a national shame.
      - mpyne 13y ago
        Like how those other NSA whistleblowers were "tortured"? Their treatment was wrong, I'll admit, but calling it torture is insulting to those who have actually been waterboarded by the U.S.
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        Solitary confinement is torture.
        mpyne 13y ago
        Which NSA whistleblower was subjected to solitary confinement?
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
EthanHeilman 13y ago
It depends if the punishment has been legally or extra-legal decided and would be extra-legally carried out. Such claims are always a matter of opinion and whose law, but not all opinions are equal. 1. Threats Made by the US Government: Obama's statements such that Snowden is not worth the effort of an expensive extra-legal killing (“not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker”) by a president that has engaged in many extra-legal killings, at least one against a US citizen, is a threat of extra-legal action. For instance if someone sent a letter that said "I'd kill you but you aren't worth the bullets" would be interpreted by many courts as a threat. Furthermore direct threats of extra-legal killing have been made by other members of the US government. 2. Prior Actions Against Snowden: The fact that Obama has attempted to use trade deals and threats to prevent Snowdens asylum appeals suggests that Obama and the US government is not willing to give Snowden a fair hearing since they are manipulating the international system of asylum to prevent him from getting a fair hearing internationally. 3.Prior Pattern of Action Against Other Whistle Blowers: Obamas illegal treatment of Bradley Manning is part of a pattern going back before Obama of illegal mistreatment of whistle blowers by the US government. Given this evidence I would argue that the threat of extra-legal punishment is very much real and has been publicly communicated to all involved parties. The reality and communication of this threat to Snowden makes a very strong case for the claim that he has been extra-legally exiled.

res0nat0r 13y ago

Websters does not have any language of the sort relating to "imprisonment or death upon return". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exile http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exile By the Wikipedia definition above every criminal who flees the country to avoid arrest is by definition in exile. Skipping town because you want to avoid a crime isn't being in exile, it is being on the run.

EthanHeilman 13y ago
Websters does not use this exact definition, being a more compact format than wikipedia, but if you look under the examples in Websters you will see "Many chose to live as exiles rather than face persecution." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exile http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exile

willvarfar 13y ago

Fun that we reach for the wikipedia definition of a word; that definition is easily editable.