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Equally he has not been given the penalty of "exile." There is nothing the U.S. would like more than to have Snowden return to U.S. soil. This stretching of th
by michaelhoffman 13y ago
Equally he has not been given the penalty of "exile." There is nothing the U.S. would like more than to have Snowden return to U.S. soil.
This stretching of the truth does not engender trust.
- runjake 13y agoYou're parting hairs and completely missed Snowden's point: that the US government has slickly put him in limbo. He either turns himself in or ends up like the guy in the Tom Hanks movie, Terminal.
- michaelhoffman 13y agoStretching the truth is wholly unnecessary to making such a point. Need I argue that the ends do not justify the means?
- lhnz 13y agoYour argument stems from an inability to check what "exile" is... "Exile means to be away from one's home (i.e. city, state or country), while either being explicitly refused permission to return and/or being threatened with imprisonment or death upon return." [0] Hopefully that clears things up... [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile
- tome 13y agoMy understanding is that the imprisonment/death would be a penalty for breaking the terms of the exile, which is something quite different.
- lhnz 13y agoFair enough, but at this point it's pretty close to exile without being a perfect example... Still: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5974040 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5974040 I think effectively it is a bad situation which has been created for him by the United States government. They are definitely manipulating his citizenship for their purposes whether you like the wording or not.
- tome 13y agoThey revoked his passport because he's wanted for questioning about a crime. How is that different from any other criminal who flees abroad?
- lhnz 13y agoThey revoked his passport because they needed time to negotiate with other countries to refuse him the right to asylum. And this isn't about just being questioned. If he is extradited back to the US, expect a lot worse to happen to him... What he has done is no doubt illegal, but it also strikes me as a positive thing. I disagree with people that say he is a fugitive from justice - I think it's very clear that he is a fugitive from injustice. He has shown us injustices from the US government - and now they wish to have him stand trial in order that they can lock him up for life, sentence him to death or torture him. Is there a difference between Snowden and other criminals? Yes, Snowden has done the right thing.
- mbreese 13y agoJust to be clear - he hasn't been exiled by the US. He is in self-imposed exile to avoid prosecution. They haven't revoked his citizenship... just his passport. That doesn't remove citizenship, just the ability to travel abroad.
- sneak 13y agoIf he returns to the US he will be tortured, as Manning was, prior to trial for much the same charge. It's not self-imposed exile if returning to the US is a non-option due to their DEMONSTRATED TENDENCY to deny prisoners their basic human rights.
- EthanHeilman 13y agoBut clearly he did not stretch the truth, you just failed to understand the full meaning of exile. An accident, but easily remedied. Why are you so insistent that he is stretching the truth?
- olefoo 13y agoIf your alternatives are "Return to your home country and face torture." or "Accept that you will have to live out your days under the protection of a government not your own."; I would say that qualifies as being forced into exile. And no, the use of the word "Torture" is not hyperbole in this case; no matter what technicalities you sugar coat it with; the US Government lacks all credibility on the issue of human rights at this time.
- thufry 13y agoWould you consider someone who murdered several children and then fled the country to be in exile? Because his choices would be to return and face the death penalty, or live in hiding abroad. Whether you think he did a good thing or a bad thing, it's clear that Snowden is, by his own acknowledgment, guilty of multiple counts of serious felonies in the United States. The government is acting as expected, given this fact.
- baddox 13y ago> Would you consider someone who murdered several children and then fled the country to be in exile? Yes, absolutely. Are there any English speakers who wouldn't?
- mpyne 13y agoWe would say "self-imposed exile". Or colloquially, that he was "on the lam". Exile is where someone else imposes it on you.
- fragsworth 13y agoWhat??? He is, very clearly by definition, exiled. From Wikipedia: Exile means to be away from one's home (i.e. city, state or country), while either being explicitly refused permission to return and/or being threatened with imprisonment or death upon return.
- lttlrck 13y agoSo if I rob a bank and flee to South America to escape justice I am exiled? Give me a break.
- jlgreco 13y agoExile is indeed how it is generally described when the "bank" is a "country" and "you" are a "dictator".
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- thenewkid 13y agoYes, except it would be self-exile.
- baddox 13y agoYes, that absolutely means you're exiled. I'm not sure what the controversy is here.
- brown9-2 13y agoIt's a misappropriation of the meaning of forced exile as a punishment.
- dmiladinov 13y agoAccording to Wikipedia: Exile means to be away from one's home (i.e. city, state or country), while either being explicitly refused permission to return and/or being threatened with imprisonment or death upon return. So he's probably not so much worried about whether or not he can return to the U.S., but rather what would happen to him when he did. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile
- mpyne 13y agoEven so, the imprisonment would be because he returned per se. He may come back and the jury says "not guilty" and walk off a free man, after all.
- EthanHeilman 13y agoExile usually involves a threat of violence if the person returns home. Many exiles are exiles because their home country's government would hurt them if they returned. "Exile means to be away from one's home (i.e. city, state or country), while either being explicitly refused permission to return and/or being threatened with imprisonment or death upon return." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile Before calling into question the truth of statements made by a public figure please look up the common definition. Update: Websters does not use this exact definition, being a more compact format than wikipedia, but if you look under the examples in Websters you will see "Many chose to live as exiles rather than face persecution." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exile http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exile
- michaelhoffman 13y agoSnowden is not using the common definition of the phrase. He is explicitly using a legal definition when he says "the extralegal penalty of exile." To argue that any person who cannot return to their home country without being arrested is "extralegally exiled" would mean that any fugitive is "extralegally exiled," an absurd result.
- mpyne 13y agoIt was in fact the one comment I had been about to make. Snowden has chosen to avoid the U.S., explicitly to avoid the legal system. His own father feels he probably technically broke the law so it's hard to claim that the U.S. government has somehow managed to switch all 3 of its branches into a KILL SNOWDEN mode. If the charges are without merit then one of the very same judges that Snowden feels should be involved in these types of surveillance programs will throw them out. Snowden's exile may very well be extralegal, but both the exile and the extralegality of it are on Snowden himself.
- sneak 13y ago> Snowden has chosen to avoid the U.S., explicitly to avoid the legal system. No, he's chosen to avoid the US explicitly to avoid torture. There's nothing legal about that.
- gfodor 13y agoI would never come back to the U.S. if I was due the punishment afforded to Bradley Manning.
- dreamfactory 13y agoAnd this is the problem of being too willing and too brutal when making examples of transgressors.