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Understand that every country spies on every other. Germany moaning about us spying is highly hypocritical because they do the same exact thing to every ally. S

by danbruc 13y ago

Understand that every country spies on every other. Germany moaning about us spying is highly hypocritical because they do the same exact thing to every ally. So does France to Germany, the UK to France, so on and so forth. Hell, Israel spies on us and we spy on them. Spying is core to our safety in the modern age, and has been core to the safety of every country since the days of the roman empire. At the risk of being proven wrong in the (near) future I challenge your statement. I doubt the German government or an intelligence agency would dare to bug an US embassy, the headquarter of one of your parties or whatever comes closest to the EU buildings supposed to be bugged. Equally I doubt they are in the business of mass surveillance. There is a huge difference between USA and Germany (and probably many other European countries) - we don't have this paranoia that everyone is against us (justified or not). People don't care about terrorism. Admittedly I have never been to the USA and can not judge how much a concern this really is in the general population but the impression that arrives on this side of the ocean is that there is a widespread fear. There are of course people dealing with terrorism - we don't simply ignore the problem - but the general population really does not care. I am also not old enough to judge if this was different when Germany experienced terror attacks, for example by the RAF from the 1970s to the 1990s. I think the USA was a very different place before 9/11. I read the recently leaked NSA IG Report and what it says about the time before 9/11 is very different from what the current situation seems to be - they are talking about what they can not do and what court orders they need and so on. But then 9/11 happens and they go completely nuts.

javert 13y ago
> There is a huge difference between USA and Germany (and probably many other European countries) - we don't have this paranoia that everyone is against us (justified or not). I don't think we in the USA do, either. Don't presume that the American people are "steering the ship" of the government. The government is completely out of control. We have let go of the steering wheel. Not all that surprising... the US is basically a 3rd world country, if you consider the whole population. (As a side note, that's also why something like universal health care cannot work as well here as it can in Germany.)
- sneak 13y ago
  Yeah, I don't think it's as much a "widespread fear" as much as "widely accepted as a legitimate excuse for exceptional acts by government". Most people aren't really that terrorized, but when the government (which is pretty distinct from median Americans) does stuff that's unprecedented or otherwise eyebrow-raising, it's generally accepted by most as an explanation. I think it's more of a circumstance where it's made to seem that society cares a lot about preventing terrorism (via media channels), so individuals go along with stuff thinking that most OTHER people are afraid/terrorized/in crisis, even if the majority is not terrorized/apathetic/et c. Interestingly, this state of affairs is also congruent with it then seeming to foreigners like the US population is actively afraid, because there's no good way to stop the media message at the borders.
VladRussian2 13y ago
>I doubt the German government or an intelligence agency would dare to bug an US embassy, well, not at least with "Made in Germany" bugs and wires directly leading to the intelligence agency HQ :) There is a gentlemen's agreement between such a great allies as UK, Germany, US, ... - they spy on each other embassies, parties, government offices, etc... because Germany spying on Germany is illegal in Germany, so to workaround the law UK or US would do the job and exchange the results.
cube13 13y ago
>At the risk of being proven wrong in the (near) future I challenge your statement. I doubt the German government or an intelligence agency would dare to bug an US embassy, the headquarter of one of your parties or whatever comes closest to the EU buildings supposed to be bugged. Equally I doubt they are in the business of mass surveillance. All intelligence services are in the business of mass surveillance, period. If they're not, they aren't a good intelligence service. The simple fact is that with the way the world is today, it's foolish to blindly assume that your allies are always acting in your best interest. They are, obviously, going to act in their own best interests, but it's important to know when your interests coincide, and when they don't. And it's more important to know that now than any other time. The difference between today and 30 years ago is that there isn't a Warsaw Pact for NATO to oppose. Keep in mind, every major player in the Warsaw Pact is now either a member of NATO, or in a "partnership for peace" with NATO. The current major "adversary"(and I use that term very, very lightly) is China, who enjoys good trade relations with the entire world, to the point where open conflict with China would be so disastrous to everyone involved(including China), that it's completely off the table. That's why this kind of spycraft is even more important now than ever. Large scale military movements are easy to see. But knowing things like what the EU as a whole is going to do with trade agreements, or if the Chinese are talking to the Russians about a new oil pipeline, is hugely important.
- danbruc 13y ago
  All intelligence services are in the business of mass surveillance, period. If they're not, they aren't a good intelligence service. Isn't it the other way round? You fail at targeted surveillance and have to resort to mass surveillance? The simple fact is that with the way the world is today, it's foolish to blindly assume that your allies are always acting in your best interest. They are, obviously, going to act in their own best interests, but it's important to know when your interests coincide, and when they don't. And it's more important to know that now than any other time. I mostly agree - usually the best you can expect is that someone is acting in common best interest. But there are also some exception like help after a natural disaster where states might indeed act in your best interest. The difference between today and 30 years ago is that there isn't a Warsaw Pact for NATO to oppose. Keep in mind, every major player in the Warsaw Pact is now either a member of NATO, or in a "partnership for peace" with NATO. The current major "adversary"(and I use that term very, very lightly) is China, who enjoys good trade relations with the entire world, to the point where open conflict with China would be so disastrous to everyone involved(including China), that it's completely off the table. For Germany China is an important trade partner with between 5 % and 10 % of the total import and export volume. Stopping all trading relationships will without doubt have a noticeable effect but I don't know if it will be our if I would call it disastrous. That's why this kind of spycraft is even more important now than ever. Large scale military movements are easy to see. But knowing things like what the EU as a whole is going to do with trade agreements, or if the Chinese are talking to the Russians about a new oil pipeline, is hugely important. Yes, it might be interesting to know, but obtaining this information by spying at others is not legal. In this world it is also important to have some money at hand but that makes a really bad justification for robbing a bank. Just because you want something does not mean you can have it or are even entitled to have it. If law and justice means something to you, deal with it, otherwise you are just opportunistic.

by danbruc 13y ago

javert 13y ago

> There is a huge difference between USA and Germany (and probably many other European countries) - we don't have this paranoia that everyone is against us (justified or not). I don't think we in the USA do, either. Don't presume that the American people are "steering the ship" of the government. The government is completely out of control. We have let go of the steering wheel. Not all that surprising... the US is basically a 3rd world country, if you consider the whole population. (As a side note, that's also why something like universal health care cannot work as well here as it can in Germany.)

sneak 13y ago
Yeah, I don't think it's as much a "widespread fear" as much as "widely accepted as a legitimate excuse for exceptional acts by government". Most people aren't really that terrorized, but when the government (which is pretty distinct from median Americans) does stuff that's unprecedented or otherwise eyebrow-raising, it's generally accepted by most as an explanation. I think it's more of a circumstance where it's made to seem that society cares a lot about preventing terrorism (via media channels), so individuals go along with stuff thinking that most OTHER people are afraid/terrorized/in crisis, even if the majority is not terrorized/apathetic/et c. Interestingly, this state of affairs is also congruent with it then seeming to foreigners like the US population is actively afraid, because there's no good way to stop the media message at the borders.

VladRussian2 13y ago

>I doubt the German government or an intelligence agency would dare to bug an US embassy, well, not at least with "Made in Germany" bugs and wires directly leading to the intelligence agency HQ :) There is a gentlemen's agreement between such a great allies as UK, Germany, US, ... - they spy on each other embassies, parties, government offices, etc... because Germany spying on Germany is illegal in Germany, so to workaround the law UK or US would do the job and exchange the results.

cube13 13y ago

>At the risk of being proven wrong in the (near) future I challenge your statement. I doubt the German government or an intelligence agency would dare to bug an US embassy, the headquarter of one of your parties or whatever comes closest to the EU buildings supposed to be bugged. Equally I doubt they are in the business of mass surveillance. All intelligence services are in the business of mass surveillance, period. If they're not, they aren't a good intelligence service. The simple fact is that with the way the world is today, it's foolish to blindly assume that your allies are always acting in your best interest. They are, obviously, going to act in their own best interests, but it's important to know when your interests coincide, and when they don't. And it's more important to know that now than any other time. The difference between today and 30 years ago is that there isn't a Warsaw Pact for NATO to oppose. Keep in mind, every major player in the Warsaw Pact is now either a member of NATO, or in a "partnership for peace" with NATO. The current major "adversary"(and I use that term very, very lightly) is China, who enjoys good trade relations with the entire world, to the point where open conflict with China would be so disastrous to everyone involved(including China), that it's completely off the table. That's why this kind of spycraft is even more important now than ever. Large scale military movements are easy to see. But knowing things like what the EU as a whole is going to do with trade agreements, or if the Chinese are talking to the Russians about a new oil pipeline, is hugely important.

danbruc 13y ago
All intelligence services are in the business of mass surveillance, period. If they're not, they aren't a good intelligence service. Isn't it the other way round? You fail at targeted surveillance and have to resort to mass surveillance? The simple fact is that with the way the world is today, it's foolish to blindly assume that your allies are always acting in your best interest. They are, obviously, going to act in their own best interests, but it's important to know when your interests coincide, and when they don't. And it's more important to know that now than any other time. I mostly agree - usually the best you can expect is that someone is acting in common best interest. But there are also some exception like help after a natural disaster where states might indeed act in your best interest. The difference between today and 30 years ago is that there isn't a Warsaw Pact for NATO to oppose. Keep in mind, every major player in the Warsaw Pact is now either a member of NATO, or in a "partnership for peace" with NATO. The current major "adversary"(and I use that term very, very lightly) is China, who enjoys good trade relations with the entire world, to the point where open conflict with China would be so disastrous to everyone involved(including China), that it's completely off the table. For Germany China is an important trade partner with between 5 % and 10 % of the total import and export volume. Stopping all trading relationships will without doubt have a noticeable effect but I don't know if it will be our if I would call it disastrous. That's why this kind of spycraft is even more important now than ever. Large scale military movements are easy to see. But knowing things like what the EU as a whole is going to do with trade agreements, or if the Chinese are talking to the Russians about a new oil pipeline, is hugely important. Yes, it might be interesting to know, but obtaining this information by spying at others is not legal. In this world it is also important to have some money at hand but that makes a really bad justification for robbing a bank. Just because you want something does not mean you can have it or are even entitled to have it. If law and justice means something to you, deal with it, otherwise you are just opportunistic.