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Champions of human rights don't go to russia for "asylum" - it's where defecting spies go. So let's just call it like it is: he's defecting. Less and less, at

by vbtemp 13y ago

Champions of human rights don't go to russia for "asylum" - it's where defecting spies go. So let's just call it like it is: he's defecting. Less and less, at this point, are his actions about government accountability and civil rights, and more and more about damaging US national security for the benefit of its (completely NON-free) adversaries I hope he relishes his unbounded freedoms in Russia, since it's a place of government/defense/intelligence-agency transparency, a bastion of free speech & democracy, and a place where journalists are not routinely murdered. At least he's out of the tyrannical USA. Oh, wait...

Terretta 13y ago
I cannot see the relevance of conditions in Russia to Snowden's decision that conditions in the United States need to be fixed. Every country in the world could be far worse, without releasing the US from its principled goal of fostering a new birth of freedom through a government of the people, by the people, for the people.
- embolism 13y ago
  If that's what Snowden cares about he's not doing much to make that point.
gerhardi 13y ago
Do you think that it is Snowden who is hurting USA or the actions USA (NSA/CIA/etc) has taken and tried to hide?
- vbtemp 13y ago
  Both
  - indlebe 13y ago
    This isn't a chicken and egg scenario though. Snowden couldn't be hurting the US if they didn't take the actions in the first place. It's like blaming victims of police brutality that have come forward for the bad public image of police.
    - jayfuerstenberg 13y ago
      Exactly. Don't like it when people take photos of you streaking children? Then don't streak children!
menato 13y ago
Well, stereotypical appreciation of reality is the best cure against sudden amusement.
zby 13y ago
I wonder then what a champion of human rights should do in his position?
- sharpneli 13y ago
  This is what I wonder the most. Bradley Manning was/is basically tortured so US has made it clear that the punishment for leaking any information, especially embarrassing, will result in torture. And now they are making comments that by leaving Snowden showed that he is a 'defector/spy'. If he stays he would be tortured, if he leaves his stories are discredited, though they would be discredited in any case. Are those that claim he is defecting totally serious? That he should endure torture?
sophacles 13y ago
You are setting up a false dilemma. The position that "if he is unwilling to stay in the US or go to the people who will just return him there, so he can face serious punishment", aka that if is unwilling to become a martyr, then he can not be a person who actually wants to point out something wrong. This is a silly scenario. For example, I we need to fix the prison system in the US. I am not willing to martyr myself for it. Is it your position that it can't be too bad then? Or that I must not mean it because I don't want to be a martyr? The premise from which you are arguing is just incorrect.
ricree 13y ago
>Champions of human rights don't go to russia for "asylum" - it's where defecting spies go. Who's lining up to offer him asylum? It isn't like he picked Russia out of a wide range of better options.

by vbtemp 13y ago

Terretta 13y ago

I cannot see the relevance of conditions in Russia to Snowden's decision that conditions in the United States need to be fixed. Every country in the world could be far worse, without releasing the US from its principled goal of fostering a new birth of freedom through a government of the people, by the people, for the people.

embolism 13y ago
If that's what Snowden cares about he's not doing much to make that point.

gerhardi 13y ago

Do you think that it is Snowden who is hurting USA or the actions USA (NSA/CIA/etc) has taken and tried to hide?

vbtemp 13y ago
Both
- indlebe 13y ago
  This isn't a chicken and egg scenario though. Snowden couldn't be hurting the US if they didn't take the actions in the first place. It's like blaming victims of police brutality that have come forward for the bad public image of police.
  - jayfuerstenberg 13y ago
    Exactly. Don't like it when people take photos of you streaking children? Then don't streak children!

menato 13y ago

Well, stereotypical appreciation of reality is the best cure against sudden amusement.

zby 13y ago

I wonder then what a champion of human rights should do in his position?

sharpneli 13y ago
This is what I wonder the most. Bradley Manning was/is basically tortured so US has made it clear that the punishment for leaking any information, especially embarrassing, will result in torture. And now they are making comments that by leaving Snowden showed that he is a 'defector/spy'. If he stays he would be tortured, if he leaves his stories are discredited, though they would be discredited in any case. Are those that claim he is defecting totally serious? That he should endure torture?

sophacles 13y ago

You are setting up a false dilemma. The position that "if he is unwilling to stay in the US or go to the people who will just return him there, so he can face serious punishment", aka that if is unwilling to become a martyr, then he can not be a person who actually wants to point out something wrong. This is a silly scenario. For example, I we need to fix the prison system in the US. I am not willing to martyr myself for it. Is it your position that it can't be too bad then? Or that I must not mean it because I don't want to be a martyr? The premise from which you are arguing is just incorrect.

ricree 13y ago

>Champions of human rights don't go to russia for "asylum" - it's where defecting spies go. Who's lining up to offer him asylum? It isn't like he picked Russia out of a wide range of better options.