4 ms·

Yeah , stop trying to teach kids discipline, especially when there is none at home ...

by camus 13y ago

DanBC 13y ago
Some people with Asperger's have to fidget to be able to concentrate on what is being said. These people are not undisciplined, they are misunderstood. Some people just aren't very good at sitting still for an hour, and repeating that for however many hours they are in school. We can either chose to spend time punishing them, which harms them but also everyone else in the class, or we can learn techniques to help those people cope. We can encourage non-distracting fidgeting. These are quite seperate from discipline.
kevingadd 13y ago
Sitting still is not a virtue. It literally accomplishes nothing. It's a secondary detail - whether or not the kid is sitting still does not tell you whether they're actually paying attention to the lecture and whether they're going to remember it.
- GhotiFish 13y ago
  You're taking a narrow perspective. Fidgeting is distracting, to everyone else. Whatever your ideals of a perfect world may be, 20 dump trucks of kids needs to be educated at one facility every day. Whatever you may think one kid is doing to help him focus, that kid is disrupting the focus of his 8 neighbors. Something needs to change, but it's more than just perspectives.
  - VLM 13y ago
    "that kid is disrupting the focus of his 8 neighbors" Whatever else Catholic churches may get wrong, apparently all of the "modern" ones I've ever been inside figured out the "crying room" technology a long time ago. Setting up a "sound diode" isn't all that difficult with modern technology. If whats really important is forcing future factory workers to line up in alphabetical order in row/column format, then flexibility might not work.
- pekk 13y ago
  Being able to listen attentively is a valuable skill upon which other skills can be built. Being able to not disrupt a class or meeting is a valuable skill upon which other skills can be built. Thumb-twiddling doesn't matter, but listening and not being pointlessly disruptive DOES matter and learning skills like this is part of growing up.
jamii 13y ago
And yet if you work in an office the Health and Safety advice is to change position frequently and take regular breaks to standup, stretch and walk around. Sitting still for an hour is unpleasant and unhealthy.
- pekk 13y ago
  This is almost completely unrelated to problems of children disrupting a class, not complying with requests, not listening, etc. Which are real issues. These are not strictly moral issues, but we are screwing kids over if we don't try to help them learn these skills in some compassionate and effective way, and we are screwing over all the other kids in a class when we do nothing about disruptions. What a kid wants right in this moment is not always what is best for the kid in the long term, even more often not what is best for other kids.
dccoolgai 13y ago
Aside from the flippant tone, I sort of agree with the point...judging by the habits that I see a lot of millenials exhibiting in the workplace, the general breakdown of discipline in primary education over the last 2-3 decades has not served students well in the classroom or on the job. I think it has mostly to do with "helicopter parenting" ("WHAT? My kid is not the problem, you are!") ... where teachers used to be able to count on parents backing them up, they mostly just complain and try to get the teacher fired for disciplining the kid - ergo, the teacher either has to give up instilling discipline in their classroom (thereby hurting the education of every other kid in the class) or resign themselves to spending a huge amount of time fighting parents instead of focusing on their lessons and having their career hurt as a result...it's a catch-22 for teachers.
- camus 13y ago
  Teachers used to be respected , but today you cant count on parent supports for the child education. If the child has bad grades, it is because of the teacher , if the child cannot behave , it is the teacher's fault. But for not one second parents question their parenting, Teachers get harassed , punched and even sued by parents when these teachers just try to do their job. With parents like that ,well , these children will never behave like adults, since their parents are not either.

Yeah , stop trying to teach kids discipline, especially when there is none at home ...

by camus 13y ago

Yeah , stop trying to teach kids discipline, especially when there is none at home ...

DanBC 13y ago

Some people with Asperger's have to fidget to be able to concentrate on what is being said. These people are not undisciplined, they are misunderstood. Some people just aren't very good at sitting still for an hour, and repeating that for however many hours they are in school. We can either chose to spend time punishing them, which harms them but also everyone else in the class, or we can learn techniques to help those people cope. We can encourage non-distracting fidgeting. These are quite seperate from discipline.

kevingadd 13y ago

Sitting still is not a virtue. It literally accomplishes nothing. It's a secondary detail - whether or not the kid is sitting still does not tell you whether they're actually paying attention to the lecture and whether they're going to remember it.

GhotiFish 13y ago
You're taking a narrow perspective. Fidgeting is distracting, to everyone else. Whatever your ideals of a perfect world may be, 20 dump trucks of kids needs to be educated at one facility every day. Whatever you may think one kid is doing to help him focus, that kid is disrupting the focus of his 8 neighbors. Something needs to change, but it's more than just perspectives.
- VLM 13y ago
  "that kid is disrupting the focus of his 8 neighbors" Whatever else Catholic churches may get wrong, apparently all of the "modern" ones I've ever been inside figured out the "crying room" technology a long time ago. Setting up a "sound diode" isn't all that difficult with modern technology. If whats really important is forcing future factory workers to line up in alphabetical order in row/column format, then flexibility might not work.
pekk 13y ago
Being able to listen attentively is a valuable skill upon which other skills can be built. Being able to not disrupt a class or meeting is a valuable skill upon which other skills can be built. Thumb-twiddling doesn't matter, but listening and not being pointlessly disruptive DOES matter and learning skills like this is part of growing up.

jamii 13y ago

And yet if you work in an office the Health and Safety advice is to change position frequently and take regular breaks to standup, stretch and walk around. Sitting still for an hour is unpleasant and unhealthy.

pekk 13y ago
This is almost completely unrelated to problems of children disrupting a class, not complying with requests, not listening, etc. Which are real issues. These are not strictly moral issues, but we are screwing kids over if we don't try to help them learn these skills in some compassionate and effective way, and we are screwing over all the other kids in a class when we do nothing about disruptions. What a kid wants right in this moment is not always what is best for the kid in the long term, even more often not what is best for other kids.

dccoolgai 13y ago

Aside from the flippant tone, I sort of agree with the point...judging by the habits that I see a lot of millenials exhibiting in the workplace, the general breakdown of discipline in primary education over the last 2-3 decades has not served students well in the classroom or on the job. I think it has mostly to do with "helicopter parenting" ("WHAT? My kid is not the problem, you are!") ... where teachers used to be able to count on parents backing them up, they mostly just complain and try to get the teacher fired for disciplining the kid - ergo, the teacher either has to give up instilling discipline in their classroom (thereby hurting the education of every other kid in the class) or resign themselves to spending a huge amount of time fighting parents instead of focusing on their lessons and having their career hurt as a result...it's a catch-22 for teachers.

camus 13y ago
Teachers used to be respected , but today you cant count on parent supports for the child education. If the child has bad grades, it is because of the teacher , if the child cannot behave , it is the teacher's fault. But for not one second parents question their parenting, Teachers get harassed , punched and even sued by parents when these teachers just try to do their job. With parents like that ,well , these children will never behave like adults, since their parents are not either.