11 ms·

Putin Says Snowden Must Stop Hurting U.S. to Stay in Russia

122 points by 1337biz 13y ago

corin_ 13y ago
If a country agrees to grant him asylum are they under any obligation to stick to that agreement? i.e. Can he just apply to as many places as possible, and trust whichever of the offers he likes the most, or does he have to worry that maybe a country would offer the asylum while having a secret agreement already in place with the US to extradite him as soon as he is in their power?
- skwirl 13y ago
  I think that would seriously damage the reputation of the country granting "asylum." I cannot imagine that could possibly be worth it.
  - znowi 13y ago
    I'd say whoever grants Snowden asylum will be seen as Robin Hood by many people :)
    - jessaustin 13y ago
      GP meant that offering asylum and then turning Snowden over to USA custody would cause a damaged reputation. I think that's optimistic...
- Afforess 13y ago
  That would be Non-refoulement, and a major violation of the UN agreement. I am not sure of any physical consequences to the country that does this, beyond a damaged reputation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-refoulement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-refoulement
- stonemetal 13y ago
  Having asylum revoked is certainly possible. If you have asylum in the US being convicted of certain crimes is enough to get it revoked.
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deletes 13y ago
>there is one condition: He must cease his work aimed at inflicting damage to our American partners, as strange as it may sound from my lips.”< Didn't Snowden already give all of his information to various persons around the world? Is he really revealing all of this from an airport?
- skwirl 13y ago
  Perhaps that is the game. It sounds like the U.S. is successfully pressuring Ecuador and Russia behind the scenes. If Russia wants to give Snowden over while saving face, this is the way to do it. Give him an ultimatum you already know he cannot possibly comply with. Then you make it look like his fault.
  - notahacker 13y ago
    I see it as the opposite: Russia is completely in control here. They avoid complying with US wishes whilst portraying themselves as keen to avoid antagonism, get rhetorical ammunition to defend their own policies of censorship, and retain Snowden and any actually useful information he might actually be able to supply them with as a bargaining chip.
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  - jessaustin 13y ago
    Maybe the USA is "successfully pressuring" Russia, but that thought inspires despair. Of all the things to pressure Russia about (e.g. their own civil liberties violations, the even-worse civil liberties violations in the former Soviet "republics", their support for Assad in Syria, nuclear proliferation, nuclear disarmament, organized crime, environmental degradation, their undermining of former Soviet-bloc nations, etc.), this is the choice of the Nobel Peace Prize Winner? Some fop who embarrassed General Surveillance and didn't actually threaten anyone's actual security?
- 1337biz 13y ago
  Well, if he were a politician, he probably would make a statement regretting that he distributed the information and encouraging those with the information to not share it. (Of cause knowing that this is never going to happen.)
sethbannon 13y ago
Entire article can be summarized in this paragraph: "“Russia never gives up anyone to anybody and is not planning to,” Mr. Putin said. He added, “If he wants to go somewhere and they accept him, please, be my guest. If he wants to say here, there is one condition: He must cease his work aimed at inflicting damage to our American partners, as strange as it may sound from my lips.”"
- malandrew 13y ago
  Basically, "Stay here as long as you need to figure out where to go next and how to get there. Just don't put us in a difficult position in the meantime."
  - cynoclast 13y ago
    Nailed it!
- ianb 13y ago
  Does Russia really not give up anyone? There's lots of crime that is much less complicated than this case. I assume this is hyperbole?
  - smm2000 13y ago
    I think he means that Russian never gives up defectors and spys. Also the same is true for US.
- zby 13y ago
  Russia wants to use him as a possibility press the USA - for that he needs to stay in Russia and have still some more not yet leaked material. When he spends all the revelations he is of no use for Russia.
jdp23 13y ago
And 14 other countries as well ...
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skwirl 13y ago
The short of the news coming out over the last few days is that things are starting to look grim for Mr. Snowden. Ecuador has bowed to U.S. pressure and no longer looks interested in hosting Snowden. Wikileaks admits he is "marooned" in Russia and they don't seem to have any more tricks up their sleeves to get him out. Now Putin seems to be threatening Snowden not to leak anything else or be unwelcome in Russia, while it seems like Snowden has already set the leaks in motion and may not be able to stop them. The Russian official who spoke to the New York Times about Snowden's asylum applications called them a "desperate measure." I think it is quite probable that Mr. Snowden will be coming home soon.
- dotcoma 13y ago
  And not to a hero's welcome, unfortunately for him and for the US.
- mc32 13y ago
  It's not clear that Ecuador bowed to political/economic pressures as much as Mr Assange upset Ecuador by appearing to be the orchestrator (showboating)[1], [2]. [1]http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/ecuador-snowden-asylum-julian-assange/66704/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/ecuador-snow... [2]http://www.elcomercio.com/politica/RafaelCorrea-Assange-Snowden-Patino-EE-UU_0_947905395.html http://www.elcomercio.com/politica/RafaelCorrea-Assange-Snow... Use google translate.
kposehn 13y ago
There are two basic scenarios here that I see, both of them extremely bad for US national security (something I care about, and everyone reading this should too because it is core to our safety). * 1. Obama made a huge back-channel concession to Russia to get them to deny Snowden asylum. He had to do something to get Putin to decide not to shelter Snowden, and it would likely be an extremely painful concession. Most likely something security related in eastern Europe, probably BMD. 2. Putin cannot keep Snowden from releasing information and has done what he can to bind Snowden to Moscow. By forcing Snowden to stop publishing, he can keep any revelations from being released and instead give him a thorough debriefing to gain sole access to a treasure trove of counter espionage intelligence. This is bad. Very, very bad. (*)Understand that every country spies on every other. Germany moaning about us spying is highly hypocritical because they do the same exact thing to every ally. So does France to Germany, the UK to France, so on and so forth. Hell, Israel spies on us and we spy on them. Spying is core to our safety in the modern age, and has been core to the safety of every country since the days of the roman empire.
- cube13 13y ago
  >1. Obama made a huge* back-channel concession to Russia to get them to deny Snowden asylum. He had to do something to get Putin to decide not to shelter Snowden, and it would likely be an extremely painful concession. Most likely something security related in eastern Europe, probably BMD. Realistically, that's not much of a concession, even though the Russians will play it up as such. It'll be a political hit for Obama from the 10 people who still care about it in the US, but in terms of international politics, it won't be all that much. Think about it this way: Russia is one of the largest oil producing nations in the world. They supply most of Europe. Why would they nuke their paying customers? The BMD interceptors that are currently planned on getting put in eastern Europe have a very questionable test record, are stupidly expensive, and, in all honesty, were a needless provocation of the Russians when they were planned during the Bush administration. Removing them would save a lot of people a lot of money and de-escalate a silly situation.
  - kposehn 13y ago
    I disagree. The BMD systems are an essential way for Poland and other eastern european countries to counter Russian influence by guaranteeing a US military presence and negating the effect of short-range missile deployments. Bush started it for good reason - it is in the US' best interests to keep Russia from becoming dominant over eastern European countries. They already use natural gas as a major level over countries (remember when they switched off the gas due to a 'pricing dispute'?). We want to mitigate Russian influence in their periphery as no one in Europe or the US wants another warsaw pact. Russia wants to dominate them because their security stems from having a large buffer between them and germany (or anyone else for that matter.
nemo1618 13y ago
>"It seems to me that Snowden is the greatest pacifist. This person has done no less to win the Nobel Peace Prize than Barack Obama." love it.
znowi 13y ago
It's unfortunate there's not a single country that can withstand US influence. Not even so called "dictators".
- NegativeK 13y ago
  Snowden could probably go to North Korea, but it's doubtful that he wants to.
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    The DPRK isn't going to stick to principles. They'll sell him off or use him as a bargaining token whenever they need, without thinking twice.
- JonFish85 13y ago
  To be fair, this is the same influence that ensures that countries tend to want to keep American tourists somewhat safe.
- 3am 13y ago
  Maybe they just don't care to resist US influence in this case as much as you would hope they would.
laureny 13y ago
This is the heart of the matter: > But over the week that Mr. Snowden has spent at Sheremetyevo airport, top Russian officials have tried to remain neutral on whether Mr. Snowden should be granted asylum, perhaps because they are wary of the damage it would do to their relationship with the United States. The same scenario is going to repeat with most countries on the planet. There are three kinds of countries: 1) those that have an extradition treaty with the US, 2) those that don't and are neutral to the US and 3) those that don't and that are enemies of the US. Countries in situation 1) and 2) will never accept to offer political asylum to Snowden. At worst, countries of type 2) will have to be given incentives (trade, money, etc...) to extradite Snowden but they can certainly not afford angering the US. Which leaves countries that are enemies of the US (e.g. Iran, Afghanistan, Cuba to some extent, etc...). Such countries couldn't care less to damage their relationships with the US and will gladly have Snowden over, but for Snowden to accept to move such countries would be openly admitting that he is an enemy of the US as well, which is what Putin is hinting. Blowing the whistle is one thing, disclosing confidential matter that damages the US on the geopolitical scene is usually referred to as treason.
- notahacker 13y ago
  There are three kinds of countries: 1) those that have an extradition treaty with the US, 2) those that don't and are neutral to the US and 3) those that don't and that are enemies of the US I'd say Russia was type 2b: a country which is basically neutral towards the US but can afford to anger them whenever they want to (arguably angering them infrequently actually strengthens their foreign policy hand). See also Russia's outspoken support of Assad.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  "for Snowden to accept to move such countries would be openly admitting" .. that no other country gave him asylum? Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aiding or involved by such an endeavor. ^ that's a long queue, but Snowden isn't in it. But I think it could be argued that those who habitually hand over the democratic process to the highest bidders are.
asaarinen 13y ago
Read: Snowden should publish everything he has, because after that he will be granted asylum. What better way to get everything out of Snowden, still stay "neutral" and give USG the diplomatic finger
blueprint 13y ago
What is the evidence that Snowden's activities have harmed US?
- darthfodder 13y ago
  There is none. Only politicians claiming so.
- freehunter 13y ago
  You haven't read about the outrage from countries, citizens, human rights activists, etc? Lawsuits from the ACLU? Ecuador dropping their favored trade status (trade favors go both ways). At the very least, this has harmed the public image of the US government just by the very nature of its public reveal.
  - kalms 13y ago
    It would seem like EU dropping their planned trade agreement would be a much bigger blow. Not to mention the animosity it has created towards the US in general. European leaders are demanding answers, and the US is staying silent. It's not good, that's for sure.
    - blueprint 13y ago
      Most or all EU countries have programs that spy on their own citizens and on US traffic. And, they oft do so in cooperation with the US government. Additionally, the politicians who are calling for trade agreement cancellation are doing so on the stage of the world – with specific political agenda. They do that because if they don't, they invite exploitation and will lose their own power. The revelation of all the facts about the reality of the power structures in the world must occur, and it must occur so that the people can finally live without latent animosity towards each other. The fact that the surveillance was not leaked with documents via a publicly accepted media outlet before Snowden does not somehow mean that the problems did not exist before and have continuous affect on people, society, and further, the world. On the contrary, as long as people live in ignorance or denial of important problems, it means those problems are hidden by the society, and the society will become dark and the society in turn causes people to do wrong things. In a dark society, justice becomes lost. When justice is lost, the society will fall. That's why this effort to reveal the reality has quite the opposite effect on our society of harming us. It is absolutely necessary if we are to survive the next decade and if we are to truly live with worldwide cooperation.
United857 13y ago
The US will quietly offer to release one or more Russian "spies" caught in the USA in exchange for them handing over Snowden. This type of thing happened all the time during the Cold War.
codex 13y ago
It sounds like Russian intelligence services have finished rifling Snowden for classified information. They don't want Snowden leaking to anyone else what they've rightfully pilfered.
vbtemp 13y ago
Champions of human rights don't go to russia for "asylum" - it's where defecting spies go. So let's just call it like it is: he's defecting. Less and less, at this point, are his actions about government accountability and civil rights, and more and more about damaging US national security for the benefit of its (completely NON-free) adversaries I hope he relishes his unbounded freedoms in Russia, since it's a place of government/defense/intelligence-agency transparency, a bastion of free speech & democracy, and a place where journalists are not routinely murdered. At least he's out of the tyrannical USA. Oh, wait...
- Terretta 13y ago
  I cannot see the relevance of conditions in Russia to Snowden's decision that conditions in the United States need to be fixed. Every country in the world could be far worse, without releasing the US from its principled goal of fostering a new birth of freedom through a government of the people, by the people, for the people.
  - embolism 13y ago
    If that's what Snowden cares about he's not doing much to make that point.
- gerhardi 13y ago
  Do you think that it is Snowden who is hurting USA or the actions USA (NSA/CIA/etc) has taken and tried to hide?
  - vbtemp 13y ago
    Both
    - indlebe 13y ago
      This isn't a chicken and egg scenario though. Snowden couldn't be hurting the US if they didn't take the actions in the first place. It's like blaming victims of police brutality that have come forward for the bad public image of police.
cynoclast 13y ago
It's not Snowden that is inflicting damage to America, it is those who have corrupted the government with their prodigious wealth. Congress is 51% lawyers despite the fact that less than 1% of Americans are. Congress is ~40% millionaires (or more) despite the fact that less than 4% of Americans. Vote out the rich and their lawyers lapdogs and we will have our country back peacefully.
- r00fus 13y ago
  Putin really means "don't harm US-Russia relations". Pretty basic, Russia isn't ready to fight the US for Snowden, but will respect his travel rights.
- tg3 13y ago
  I think it's a good idea to have a larger portion of lawyers as legislators than the general population - these are the people that are writing laws. Yes, money has too much influence in politics, but the way to fix that is with real campaign finance reform, getting rid of the corporate "free speech" unlimited campaign contributions, and adding more transparency to the process, not some vague notion of "voting out the rich".
- qwertzlcoatl 13y ago
  I was interested in a source for these numbers and I might just post them here for anyone wondering : Percentage of lawyers: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/files/2013/01/Congress.jpg http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/files/2013/01/Co... Percentage of millionaires: http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2013/feb/04/rob-woodall/congress-millionaires-club/ http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2013/feb/04/rob...
eightyone 13y ago
Maybe this is why Greewald tweeted this earlier: "NOTE: Snowden's leak is basically done. It's newspapers - not Snowden - deciding what gets disclosed and in what sequence." https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/351730381478821888 https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/351730381478821888
- codex 13y ago
  I wonder if Russia is setting up Snowden for eviction. If Russia knows that newspapers will soon publish more Snowden leaks, it can publically demand that Snowden stop leaking and then kick him out when the leaks inevitably appear--even though the leaks have, in fact, already occurred. In this way, Russia complies with U.S. demands without appearing to just hand him over.
  - sneak 13y ago
    Putin's direct quotes in the article are entirely unambiguous: he's not getting handed over/kicked out, just that he won't get asylum. Also, he's not leaking anything anymore, as all the data's been handed off to journos already. Technically his role in all of this is done now—his is now but to do and die.
- sneak 13y ago
  Yeah, it would be really silly of him to travel with the only unreleased copy of future disclosures considering the lengths to which the US military will go to stop this saga. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/25/greenwald-snowden-s-files-are-out-there-if-anything-happens-to-him.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/25/greenwald-s... (A laptop was stolen from Greenwald's partner's residence in Brazil after discussing on Skype that encrypted copies of some documents were to be sent there.)
- ritchiea 13y ago
  What year do we live in that newspapers control what information a programmer can disclose to the public?

122 points by 1337biz 13y ago

If a country agrees to grant him asylum are they under any obligation to stick to that agreement? i.e. Can he just apply to as many places as possible, and trust whichever of the offers he likes the most, or does he have to worry that maybe a country would offer the asylum while having a secret agreement already in place with the US to extradite him as soon as he is in their power?

skwirl 13y ago
I think that would seriously damage the reputation of the country granting "asylum." I cannot imagine that could possibly be worth it.
- znowi 13y ago
  I'd say whoever grants Snowden asylum will be seen as Robin Hood by many people :)
  - jessaustin 13y ago
    GP meant that offering asylum and then turning Snowden over to USA custody would cause a damaged reputation. I think that's optimistic...
Afforess 13y ago
That would be Non-refoulement, and a major violation of the UN agreement. I am not sure of any physical consequences to the country that does this, beyond a damaged reputation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-refoulement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-refoulement
stonemetal 13y ago
Having asylum revoked is certainly possible. If you have asylum in the US being convicted of certain crimes is enough to get it revoked.

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deletes 13y ago

>there is one condition: He must cease his work aimed at inflicting damage to our American partners, as strange as it may sound from my lips.”< Didn't Snowden already give all of his information to various persons around the world? Is he really revealing all of this from an airport?

skwirl 13y ago
Perhaps that is the game. It sounds like the U.S. is successfully pressuring Ecuador and Russia behind the scenes. If Russia wants to give Snowden over while saving face, this is the way to do it. Give him an ultimatum you already know he cannot possibly comply with. Then you make it look like his fault.
- notahacker 13y ago
  I see it as the opposite: Russia is completely in control here. They avoid complying with US wishes whilst portraying themselves as keen to avoid antagonism, get rhetorical ammunition to defend their own policies of censorship, and retain Snowden and any actually useful information he might actually be able to supply them with as a bargaining chip.
- deleted 13y ago
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- jessaustin 13y ago
  Maybe the USA is "successfully pressuring" Russia, but that thought inspires despair. Of all the things to pressure Russia about (e.g. their own civil liberties violations, the even-worse civil liberties violations in the former Soviet "republics", their support for Assad in Syria, nuclear proliferation, nuclear disarmament, organized crime, environmental degradation, their undermining of former Soviet-bloc nations, etc.), this is the choice of the Nobel Peace Prize Winner? Some fop who embarrassed General Surveillance and didn't actually threaten anyone's actual security?
1337biz 13y ago
Well, if he were a politician, he probably would make a statement regretting that he distributed the information and encouraging those with the information to not share it. (Of cause knowing that this is never going to happen.)

sethbannon 13y ago

Entire article can be summarized in this paragraph: "“Russia never gives up anyone to anybody and is not planning to,” Mr. Putin said. He added, “If he wants to go somewhere and they accept him, please, be my guest. If he wants to say here, there is one condition: He must cease his work aimed at inflicting damage to our American partners, as strange as it may sound from my lips.”"

malandrew 13y ago
Basically, "Stay here as long as you need to figure out where to go next and how to get there. Just don't put us in a difficult position in the meantime."
- cynoclast 13y ago
  Nailed it!
ianb 13y ago
Does Russia really not give up anyone? There's lots of crime that is much less complicated than this case. I assume this is hyperbole?
- smm2000 13y ago
  I think he means that Russian never gives up defectors and spys. Also the same is true for US.
zby 13y ago
Russia wants to use him as a possibility press the USA - for that he needs to stay in Russia and have still some more not yet leaked material. When he spends all the revelations he is of no use for Russia.

jdp23 13y ago

And 14 other countries as well ...

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skwirl 13y ago

The short of the news coming out over the last few days is that things are starting to look grim for Mr. Snowden. Ecuador has bowed to U.S. pressure and no longer looks interested in hosting Snowden. Wikileaks admits he is "marooned" in Russia and they don't seem to have any more tricks up their sleeves to get him out. Now Putin seems to be threatening Snowden not to leak anything else or be unwelcome in Russia, while it seems like Snowden has already set the leaks in motion and may not be able to stop them. The Russian official who spoke to the New York Times about Snowden's asylum applications called them a "desperate measure." I think it is quite probable that Mr. Snowden will be coming home soon.

dotcoma 13y ago
And not to a hero's welcome, unfortunately for him and for the US.
mc32 13y ago
It's not clear that Ecuador bowed to political/economic pressures as much as Mr Assange upset Ecuador by appearing to be the orchestrator (showboating)[1], [2]. [1]http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/ecuador-snowden-asylum-julian-assange/66704/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/ecuador-snow... [2]http://www.elcomercio.com/politica/RafaelCorrea-Assange-Snowden-Patino-EE-UU_0_947905395.html http://www.elcomercio.com/politica/RafaelCorrea-Assange-Snow... Use google translate.

kposehn 13y ago

There are two basic scenarios here that I see, both of them extremely bad for US national security (something I care about, and everyone reading this should too because it is core to our safety). * 1. Obama made a huge back-channel concession to Russia to get them to deny Snowden asylum. He had to do something to get Putin to decide not to shelter Snowden, and it would likely be an extremely painful concession. Most likely something security related in eastern Europe, probably BMD. 2. Putin cannot keep Snowden from releasing information and has done what he can to bind Snowden to Moscow. By forcing Snowden to stop publishing, he can keep any revelations from being released and instead give him a thorough debriefing to gain sole access to a treasure trove of counter espionage intelligence. This is bad. Very, very bad. (*)Understand that every country spies on every other. Germany moaning about us spying is highly hypocritical because they do the same exact thing to every ally. So does France to Germany, the UK to France, so on and so forth. Hell, Israel spies on us and we spy on them. Spying is core to our safety in the modern age, and has been core to the safety of every country since the days of the roman empire.

cube13 13y ago
>1. Obama made a huge* back-channel concession to Russia to get them to deny Snowden asylum. He had to do something to get Putin to decide not to shelter Snowden, and it would likely be an extremely painful concession. Most likely something security related in eastern Europe, probably BMD. Realistically, that's not much of a concession, even though the Russians will play it up as such. It'll be a political hit for Obama from the 10 people who still care about it in the US, but in terms of international politics, it won't be all that much. Think about it this way: Russia is one of the largest oil producing nations in the world. They supply most of Europe. Why would they nuke their paying customers? The BMD interceptors that are currently planned on getting put in eastern Europe have a very questionable test record, are stupidly expensive, and, in all honesty, were a needless provocation of the Russians when they were planned during the Bush administration. Removing them would save a lot of people a lot of money and de-escalate a silly situation.
- kposehn 13y ago
  I disagree. The BMD systems are an essential way for Poland and other eastern european countries to counter Russian influence by guaranteeing a US military presence and negating the effect of short-range missile deployments. Bush started it for good reason - it is in the US' best interests to keep Russia from becoming dominant over eastern European countries. They already use natural gas as a major level over countries (remember when they switched off the gas due to a 'pricing dispute'?). We want to mitigate Russian influence in their periphery as no one in Europe or the US wants another warsaw pact. Russia wants to dominate them because their security stems from having a large buffer between them and germany (or anyone else for that matter.

nemo1618 13y ago

>"It seems to me that Snowden is the greatest pacifist. This person has done no less to win the Nobel Peace Prize than Barack Obama." love it.

znowi 13y ago

It's unfortunate there's not a single country that can withstand US influence. Not even so called "dictators".

NegativeK 13y ago
Snowden could probably go to North Korea, but it's doubtful that he wants to.
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  The DPRK isn't going to stick to principles. They'll sell him off or use him as a bargaining token whenever they need, without thinking twice.
JonFish85 13y ago
To be fair, this is the same influence that ensures that countries tend to want to keep American tourists somewhat safe.
3am 13y ago
Maybe they just don't care to resist US influence in this case as much as you would hope they would.

laureny 13y ago

This is the heart of the matter: > But over the week that Mr. Snowden has spent at Sheremetyevo airport, top Russian officials have tried to remain neutral on whether Mr. Snowden should be granted asylum, perhaps because they are wary of the damage it would do to their relationship with the United States. The same scenario is going to repeat with most countries on the planet. There are three kinds of countries: 1) those that have an extradition treaty with the US, 2) those that don't and are neutral to the US and 3) those that don't and that are enemies of the US. Countries in situation 1) and 2) will never accept to offer political asylum to Snowden. At worst, countries of type 2) will have to be given incentives (trade, money, etc...) to extradite Snowden but they can certainly not afford angering the US. Which leaves countries that are enemies of the US (e.g. Iran, Afghanistan, Cuba to some extent, etc...). Such countries couldn't care less to damage their relationships with the US and will gladly have Snowden over, but for Snowden to accept to move such countries would be openly admitting that he is an enemy of the US as well, which is what Putin is hinting. Blowing the whistle is one thing, disclosing confidential matter that damages the US on the geopolitical scene is usually referred to as treason.

notahacker 13y ago
There are three kinds of countries: 1) those that have an extradition treaty with the US, 2) those that don't and are neutral to the US and 3) those that don't and that are enemies of the US I'd say Russia was type 2b: a country which is basically neutral towards the US but can afford to anger them whenever they want to (arguably angering them infrequently actually strengthens their foreign policy hand). See also Russia's outspoken support of Assad.
PavlovsCat 13y ago
"for Snowden to accept to move such countries would be openly admitting" .. that no other country gave him asylum? Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aiding or involved by such an endeavor. ^ that's a long queue, but Snowden isn't in it. But I think it could be argued that those who habitually hand over the democratic process to the highest bidders are.

asaarinen 13y ago

Read: Snowden should publish everything he has, because after that he will be granted asylum. What better way to get everything out of Snowden, still stay "neutral" and give USG the diplomatic finger

blueprint 13y ago

What is the evidence that Snowden's activities have harmed US?

darthfodder 13y ago
There is none. Only politicians claiming so.
freehunter 13y ago
You haven't read about the outrage from countries, citizens, human rights activists, etc? Lawsuits from the ACLU? Ecuador dropping their favored trade status (trade favors go both ways). At the very least, this has harmed the public image of the US government just by the very nature of its public reveal.
- kalms 13y ago
  It would seem like EU dropping their planned trade agreement would be a much bigger blow. Not to mention the animosity it has created towards the US in general. European leaders are demanding answers, and the US is staying silent. It's not good, that's for sure.
  - blueprint 13y ago
    Most or all EU countries have programs that spy on their own citizens and on US traffic. And, they oft do so in cooperation with the US government. Additionally, the politicians who are calling for trade agreement cancellation are doing so on the stage of the world – with specific political agenda. They do that because if they don't, they invite exploitation and will lose their own power. The revelation of all the facts about the reality of the power structures in the world must occur, and it must occur so that the people can finally live without latent animosity towards each other. The fact that the surveillance was not leaked with documents via a publicly accepted media outlet before Snowden does not somehow mean that the problems did not exist before and have continuous affect on people, society, and further, the world. On the contrary, as long as people live in ignorance or denial of important problems, it means those problems are hidden by the society, and the society will become dark and the society in turn causes people to do wrong things. In a dark society, justice becomes lost. When justice is lost, the society will fall. That's why this effort to reveal the reality has quite the opposite effect on our society of harming us. It is absolutely necessary if we are to survive the next decade and if we are to truly live with worldwide cooperation.

United857 13y ago

The US will quietly offer to release one or more Russian "spies" caught in the USA in exchange for them handing over Snowden. This type of thing happened all the time during the Cold War.

codex 13y ago

It sounds like Russian intelligence services have finished rifling Snowden for classified information. They don't want Snowden leaking to anyone else what they've rightfully pilfered.

vbtemp 13y ago

Champions of human rights don't go to russia for "asylum" - it's where defecting spies go. So let's just call it like it is: he's defecting. Less and less, at this point, are his actions about government accountability and civil rights, and more and more about damaging US national security for the benefit of its (completely NON-free) adversaries I hope he relishes his unbounded freedoms in Russia, since it's a place of government/defense/intelligence-agency transparency, a bastion of free speech & democracy, and a place where journalists are not routinely murdered. At least he's out of the tyrannical USA. Oh, wait...

Terretta 13y ago
I cannot see the relevance of conditions in Russia to Snowden's decision that conditions in the United States need to be fixed. Every country in the world could be far worse, without releasing the US from its principled goal of fostering a new birth of freedom through a government of the people, by the people, for the people.
- embolism 13y ago
  If that's what Snowden cares about he's not doing much to make that point.
gerhardi 13y ago
Do you think that it is Snowden who is hurting USA or the actions USA (NSA/CIA/etc) has taken and tried to hide?
- vbtemp 13y ago
  Both
  - indlebe 13y ago
    This isn't a chicken and egg scenario though. Snowden couldn't be hurting the US if they didn't take the actions in the first place. It's like blaming victims of police brutality that have come forward for the bad public image of police.

cynoclast 13y ago

It's not Snowden that is inflicting damage to America, it is those who have corrupted the government with their prodigious wealth. Congress is 51% lawyers despite the fact that less than 1% of Americans are. Congress is ~40% millionaires (or more) despite the fact that less than 4% of Americans. Vote out the rich and their lawyers lapdogs and we will have our country back peacefully.

r00fus 13y ago
Putin really means "don't harm US-Russia relations". Pretty basic, Russia isn't ready to fight the US for Snowden, but will respect his travel rights.
tg3 13y ago
I think it's a good idea to have a larger portion of lawyers as legislators than the general population - these are the people that are writing laws. Yes, money has too much influence in politics, but the way to fix that is with real campaign finance reform, getting rid of the corporate "free speech" unlimited campaign contributions, and adding more transparency to the process, not some vague notion of "voting out the rich".
qwertzlcoatl 13y ago
I was interested in a source for these numbers and I might just post them here for anyone wondering : Percentage of lawyers: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/files/2013/01/Congress.jpg http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/files/2013/01/Co... Percentage of millionaires: http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2013/feb/04/rob-woodall/congress-millionaires-club/ http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2013/feb/04/rob...

eightyone 13y ago

Maybe this is why Greewald tweeted this earlier: "NOTE: Snowden's leak is basically done. It's newspapers - not Snowden - deciding what gets disclosed and in what sequence." https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/351730381478821888 https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/351730381478821888

codex 13y ago
I wonder if Russia is setting up Snowden for eviction. If Russia knows that newspapers will soon publish more Snowden leaks, it can publically demand that Snowden stop leaking and then kick him out when the leaks inevitably appear--even though the leaks have, in fact, already occurred. In this way, Russia complies with U.S. demands without appearing to just hand him over.
- sneak 13y ago
  Putin's direct quotes in the article are entirely unambiguous: he's not getting handed over/kicked out, just that he won't get asylum. Also, he's not leaking anything anymore, as all the data's been handed off to journos already. Technically his role in all of this is done now—his is now but to do and die.
sneak 13y ago
Yeah, it would be really silly of him to travel with the only unreleased copy of future disclosures considering the lengths to which the US military will go to stop this saga. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/25/greenwald-snowden-s-files-are-out-there-if-anything-happens-to-him.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/25/greenwald-s... (A laptop was stolen from Greenwald's partner's residence in Brazil after discussing on Skype that encrypted copies of some documents were to be sent there.)
ritchiea 13y ago
What year do we live in that newspapers control what information a programmer can disclose to the public?